Simulator technology

[HampusA]

Either way, it's sort of the same as having Vsync on?

[Giblet]

I just mean since people have a gaming average of lets say 50 - 250ms. At 50ms there are 20 updates a second, enough to pretty accurately gauge braking points and turn in points. When at 250ms, you are only getting 4 updates a second, and a quarter second is infinite in braking points.

This is why if you are trying to shave that final .5-1 second off of your best lap to run with the aliens, you need to study their replays they have posted that you can download, or videos online. This is the only way to see the telemetry of the brake and gas and wheel. Using your own replay of another car from a practice or race session will only show you an approximation of when their inputs were actually made.

I think you might be mixing two things here - the rate of updates isn't at all dependant on the ping or latency or "ms" one normally sees in games. You can have 1000 ms ping and still get 100 updates per second, your information would just be a second old.

This is what I mean, if you have a latency of up to 250, the position of the braking point can change up to 1/4 of a second per lap, as the 250ms is not constant, it fluctuates.

The main point is that opponents cars on track are inaccurate representations of that drivers inputs, so you can't see what that drive does with the wheel, gas, and brake.

[Giblet]

Either way, it's sort of the same as having Vsync on?

No completely different. Vsync is about graphics and has nothing to do with network latency. Its the macine matching frames per second to the screen refresh rate.

[HampusA]

Aah sorry should have explained more, i know vsync is about frames, i ment that with vsync theres a delay which causes you to turn in later then you should for example. high ping latency should have the same type of effect on driving no?

[lolzi]

Aah sorry should have explained more, i know vsync is about frames, i ment that with vsync theres a delay which causes you to turn in later then you should for example. high ping latency should have the same type of effect on driving no?

That would depend on the game - as far as I know, rFactor physics calculation and everything to do with the car are controlled by the user himself. In some games the server might do the calculations, in which case your turn-in point would be moved, yes.
And by the way, I don't think vsync does what you think - vsync is just used to synchronize the frames from your graphics car with the frames on your screen, if done properly all it does is remove the "tearing" one sometimes see, it doesn't necessarily have to delay anything.

[HampusA]

ok thanks,
yea maybe it's not properly done in iracing because if you sit in cockpit, turn the in game wheel on and enable vsync then start moving you wheel you will see a clear delay in what you do and what the wheel in game do.
turning that of everything responses like it should.

Maybe you can answer this, this delay with vsync (in iracing) is the delay smaller if you have a 120hz screen compared to a 60hz?
and i know it something more to it but vsync between the both is 60fps vs 120fps.

[beelsebob]

Aah sorry should have explained more, i know vsync is about frames, i ment that with vsync theres a delay which causes you to turn in later then you should for example. high ping latency should have the same type of effect on driving no?

Vsync actually doesn't introduce a delay, quite the oposite in fact.

With no vsync, each frame is rendered assuming that it will be displayed "now", the monitor then puts it on the screen anywhere between 0 and 1/60th of a second later (assuming a normal monitor).
With vsync, the renderer gets told "the monitor will next swap at time xyz", the frame is then rendered for time xyz, and the simulation keeps up exactly with where the monitor is.

What doesn't get incorporated in *either* scenario is the driver's input in that 1/60th of a second.

[HampusA]

Then why is the delay present when turning on Vsync?

I´ve tried Portal 2 aswell. With Vsync moving the mouse around it´s a relatively big delay in what i´m doing with the mouse and what is actually shown on the screen.
Without it it´s crisp movements.

[beelsebob]

Then why is the delay present when turning on Vsync?

I´ve tried Portal 2 aswell. With Vsync moving the mouse around it´s a relatively big delay in what i´m doing with the mouse and what is actually shown on the screen.
Without it it´s crisp movements.

This is getting rather off topic... I'll flagged my post to get an op to move it to the off topic forum. If you're noticing input lag it's more than likely caused by your driver being set to buffer a set number of frames. Some AMD drivers have a rather dumb default (IIRC it's 15 frames), which causes a quarter second lag on mouse input when vsync is on.

[HampusA]

I have Nvidia and no buffer on whatsoever. It´s a widely known fact (in iracing forum) that Vsync causes "input lag" or delay.

That is from people having all kinds of systems with many different cards.

[bill shoe]

But a lot if not all drivers suffer bad nausea in simulators ,vomitting after very short time repeatedly

Source?

Also to mep,

In a production car, the lowest natural ride frequencies are primary ride frequencies, generally 1-3 Hz. The car's response rate in yaw, roll, lateral accel, etc. will also generally be in this frequency range or higher.

Motion sickness is caused by lower frequency motion (less than 0.5 or 1.0 Hz depending on who you ask). Great. So why do motion simulators have a problem with motion sickness that apparently does not occur in real situations?

Relatively stationary motion simulators use jerk (rate of change of accel) motions to create the impression of actual motion. These jerk motions presumably take place at the 1-3 Hz range and higher. After the simulator has jerked in some direction to near the end of its travel it will need to gently ease back to the mid point of its travel. This motion needs to be slower (~ motion sickness freqs) so that it will not be immediately noticed much, and if it is noticed it will not feel like relevant car motion.

Lack of visual/sensory coordination, etc. also play a role, but if you are being moved around at 0.3 Hz you will be vulnerable to motion sickness regardless of graphics quality.

The interesting thing is that resistance to motion sickness is a learned behavior. When I first started doing test driving I thought I would have to quit because of the terrible feelings, especially when someone else was driving. With experience and time this problem went away, and now I can calmly sit in the back of a minivan and write notes while someone else drives around on max handling manuevers.

Why motion sickness in these real world test driving environments? The corners/kinks/lane-changes at proving grounds often have durations that effectively corresponded to the motion sickness freqs. My intuitive impression is that even though modern F1 cars generate large G forces they do not actually manuever much in the motion sickness frequency ranges.

[HampusA]

From Wirth´s view it´s just a generational thing so yea i think it´s a learned behaviour as you say.

I´m 22 so i´ve been brought up playing Gran turismo and what not while my friends dad was getting sick just playing some NFS without any motion cockpit etc.
I remember my mom turning herself instead of just pushing the left button to go left etc.

I don´t think any of the younger driver´s have absolutely any problem with sitting in a simulator all day long. their brain knows what is going on unlike maybe Barrichello or Schumacher´s brain.

[marcush.]

But a lot if not all drivers suffer bad nausea in simulators ,vomitting after very short time repeatedly

Source?

Also to mep,

In a production car, the lowest natural ride frequencies are primary ride frequencies, generally 1-3 Hz. The car's response rate in yaw, roll, lateral accel, etc. will also generally be in this frequency range or higher.

Motion sickness is caused by lower frequency motion (less than 0.5 or 1.0 Hz depending on who you ask). Great. So why do motion simulators have a problem with motion sickness that apparently does not occur in real situations?

Relatively stationary motion simulators use jerk (rate of change of accel) motions to create the impression of actual motion. These jerk motions presumably take place at the 1-3 Hz range and higher. After the simulator has jerked in some direction to near the end of its travel it will need to gently ease back to the mid point of its travel. This motion needs to be slower (~ motion sickness freqs) so that it will not be immediately noticed much, and if it is noticed it will not feel like relevant car motion.

Lack of visual/sensory coordination, etc. also play a role, but if you are being moved around at 0.3 Hz you will be vulnerable to motion sickness regardless of graphics quality.

The interesting thing is that resistance to motion sickness is a learned behavior. When I first started doing test driving I thought I would have to quit because of the terrible feelings, especially when someone else was driving. With experience and time this problem went away, and now I can calmly sit in the back of a minivan and write notes while someone else drives around on max handling manuevers.

Why motion sickness in these real world test driving environments? The corners/kinks/lane-changes at proving grounds often have durations that effectively corresponded to the motion sickness freqs. My intuitive impression is that even though modern F1 cars generate large G forces they do not actually manuever much in the motion sickness frequency ranges.

Ican stand another one driving the car at the limit endless if and only if I have avisual correlation .When sitting in the car just writing down things or reading the laptop after 20 minutes I´m feeling sick a little bit.I could not say this has changed over the years.

[beelsebob]

I have Nvidia and no buffer on whatsoever. It´s a widely known fact (in iracing forum) that Vsync causes "input lag" or delay.

That is from people having all kinds of systems with many different cards.

You are most likely witnessing the placebo effect then; vsync in itself does not cause input lag; it slightly mitigates it.

[HampusA]

It´s not placebo or any other effect. It clearly delays what i´m doing adn what is shown on screen.
Remember, i can turn it on and off in a matted of seconds so there is no placebo effect going on.