Virgin MVR-02 Cosworth

[marcush.]

i was refferring to the pitot tube only.

The installation of the exhaust looks like those we have already seen even though I do not really understand why they all are not looking into a more integrated design (that little fence is about 10mm from the exhaust pipe routing.. is the flow coming through there really that important? They all go at lengths to create smooth shapes to attract the flow going between bodywork and wheel but suddenly they put a awkward vertical bump into the entry area of this crucial flow path ..wouldn´t it not be possible to create a flatter wider tube to avoid this ?

[TzeiTzei]

I thought it looked like a thermometer, the one you stick into a ham and put it in the oven

[marcush.]

A thermocouple in the exhaust stream is quite something ,and you have all sort of issues with it delivering the results you are looking for-eg if you use a thin probe it´s quick and accurate but it will last only a short time-go for more sturdy probes and the system will be so slow you will not get any useful information what´s happening...So especially the tip design can be a real challenge when you are looking for repeatability.As always take nothing for granted what you can buy off the shelf...

[TzeiTzei]

With all the talk about some teams being able to protest the EBDs this weekend, it's only now that i've come realise that the Cosworth engine doens't have the off-throttle mapping everyone else has. That has got be quite a big disadvantage for Virgin and especially for Williams, who are actually fighting some other cars on track. I didn't realise Cosworth were lagging so far behind.

[siwillems]

well i don't know about any one else, but im guessing its going to be a long hard slog for virgin. The upgrades don't appear to have any substanial effect especialy as every one around them is developing there packages too.

Im going to make a bold assumption now that virgin will finish last again in the constructors title.

This being said, i don't feel its all bad though, i do have faith in the virgin team. Their approach will give them valuable knowledge which will helpwith each evolution of the car were hopefully it will start to compete with a few more teams around them.

So a long hard slog it will probably be then!!!

[donskar]

well i don't know about any one else, but im guessing its going to be a long hard slog for virgin. The upgrades don't appear to have any substanial effect especialy as every one around them is developing there packages too.

Im going to make a bold assumption now that virgin will finish last again in the constructors title.

This being said, i don't feel its all bad though, i do have faith in the . Their approach will give them valuable knowledge which will helpwith each evolution of the car were hopefully it will start to compete with a few more teams around them.

So a long hard slog it will probably be then!!!

Your faith in Virgin is admirable, I suppose. On what is it based? I see a dog of a car that does not seem to be getting significaantly better. What am I missing?

[marcush.]

I don´t understand why they should lag behind too much...apart from Williams ,Virgin,HRT and lotus not being prepaired to pay for a programme in 2010
maybe due to understandable reasons.
The Hardware in terms of electronics and base software is the same for everyone when it comes to engine electronics so it is mainly a thing of knowing what you really need in the overrun condition and test the limitations of your product trying to achieve this.
To map the engine for 100%throttle open and 30% fuel in overrun conditions cannot be a big task.The interesting bit will be to prevent the car pushing in overrun conditions then.... ..so you need to switch into neutral at all times you use the feature ..which may have a destabilizing effect on the car in itself.

[TzeiTzei]

The interesting bit will be to prevent the car pushing in overrun conditions then.... ..so you need to switch into neutral at all times you use the feature ..which may have a destabilizing effect on the car in itself.

Burning fuel in the exhaust doesn't create much torque, so it shouldn't be problem.

[siwillems]

well i don't know about any one else, but im guessing its going to be a long hard slog for virgin. The upgrades don't appear to have any substanial effect especialy as every one around them is developing there packages too.

Im going to make a bold assumption now that virgin will finish last again in the constructors title.

This being said, i don't feel its all bad though, i do have faith in the . Their approach will give them valuable knowledge which will helpwith each evolution of the car were hopefully it will start to compete with a few more teams around them.

So a long hard slog it will probably be then!!!

Your faith in Virgin is admirable, I suppose. On what is it based? I see a dog of a car that does not seem to be getting significaantly better. What am I missing?

I suppose its because I admire there more cost effective approach and believe in time it should pay off once they have understood some of the fundamentals on producing a fast race car. That and also I'd rather have the belief they will improve then feel as if their hopless which they may or may not be

[marcush.]

The interesting bit will be to prevent the car pushing in overrun conditions then.... ..so you need to switch into neutral at all times you use the feature ..which may have a destabilizing effect on the car in itself.

Burning fuel in the exhaust doesn't create much torque, so it shouldn't be problem.

burning fuel in the exhaust? you still have the throttle open and squirt into the inlet track ,there is no ways you will not produce any horsepower when this is ignited.in fact i think you cannot overdo this as igniting the whole lot in the exhaust only will do quite a bit of harm...
Still you don´t want the car to push in overrun as this is effectively no overrun then .

[TzeiTzei]

burning fuel in the exhaust? you still have the throttle open and squirt into the inlet track ,there is no ways you will not produce any horsepower when this is ignited.in fact i think you cannot overdo this as igniting the whole lot in the exhaust only will do quite a bit of harm...
Still you don´t want the car to push in overrun as this is effectively no overrun then .

Sorry, i was a bit inaccurate. They retard the ignition so that the expanding gases don't push the pistons very much --> very little horsepower is being produced, but you still get the exhaust gases to use them as you wish. But as you said ofcourse it doesn't exactly burn in the exhaust. My bad.

The mapping itself shouldn't be too difficult for a company like Cosworth. But it does stress the engine&exhaust quite a lot, so maybe reliability is part of the problem?

[marcush.]

the heat is unbelievable when running with retarted ignition.It´sd not only the exhaust also the exhaust valves get a serious bad time..and mind you the sparkplugs don´t like it either..as Sebastian Vetttel knows since last year..

Still the question is up:You surely do not coast a lot in F1 but still the car is pushing with throttle opened and fuel injected...So its just a bit of added brake performance at the rear that´s needed to compensate or what? I ´d think that under full braking it´s not the big issue but as you turn in you will inevitably will have to release the brakes more and more and if you got the rear pushing it will lead to early throttle application without even touching the loud pedal...I´m a bit puzzled about this..as neutral is also not what you want turning into the corner ,don´t you?

[scarbs]

With this retarded ignition mapping there is no push when braking into a corner. The ignition is retarded is to ignite the fuel after the exhaust valve opens, the burning charge goes down the exhaust pipe. With the exhaust vavle open, there is no compression in the cylinder and thus no power is created at the wheel.

Also its a bit of a myth to think only Red Bull has this mapping. They made the race debut of their EBD at the start of 2010, by May\June it was public knowledge they were retarding the ignition. As other teams switched to EBDs they were already talking to their engine suppliers about this mapping. Sam Michael said Williams were asking this to Cosworth back in June, surely must have produced a retarded map by now.

[marcush.]

With this retarded ignition mapping there is no push when braking into a corner. The ignition is retarded is to ignite the fuel after the exhaust valve opens, the burning charge goes down the exhaust pipe. With the exhaust vavle open, there is no compression in the cylinder and thus no power is created at the wheel.

Also its a bit of a myth to think only Red Bull has this mapping. They made the race debut of their EBD at the start of 2010, by May\June it was public knowledge they were retarding the ignition. As other teams switched to EBDs they were already talking to their engine suppliers about this mapping. Sam Michael said Williams were asking this to Cosworth back in June, surely must have produced a retarded map by now.

no matter when the exhaust valve opens the fuel is ignited in the chamber when the optimum time for fuel ignition is already over. so whatever it is the fuel is ignited when the piston is shortly before tdc or between tdc and long before bdc .if you ignite too late it would stop the engine as it would push the piuston back .So there will be inevitably some power pushing and horsepower produced.

If that has signi9ficance is on another board a light car can be unsettled very easily..

[volarchico]

The vehicle would still be in gear, so the forward motion would keep the engine rotating in the correct direction. An the gas would expand in the direction of least resistance (out the exhaust ports).