2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Pierce89
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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WhiteBlue wrote:I will give up for now. #-o Is it really so difficult to understand that given two alternatives of equal entertainment value F1 should always look for the one which is the most fuel efficient? Some of you guys apparently want F1 to deliberately waste fuel for the fun of it or to please Ferrari's marketing scheme.

I would like to see a true technical competition with strict fuel caps that make the most efficient car fastest. It would be something that is sensible. Perhaps I'm having too much of a grown up perspective. We should have developed beyond the stage where Ken tries to impress Barbie with the biggest ersatz member possible.
You can't see that alot of people don't consider the four-pot formula of equal entertainment value? It's not only Ferrari against this. Every site reports only Renault are in favor, but you know better and say: only Ferrari are against the rules.Just because Merc or Cosworth agreed before doesn't mean they can't change their minds. You imply that Ferrari is blackmailing them by voting against a budget cap but give no evidence. Daimler couldn't be influeced by Ferrari or anyone else. The new formula is not affordable and no amount of whining will change that,because the new engines would simply be too complex for a budget cap of less than $80mil or so. If we do go down this route, I don't want cheap half-hearted attempts, which is what we would get with a small budget.It's also very telling, the way you attack and try to insult anyone who doesn't agree with you
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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As much as I find 4cylinders engines to be boring as f'k, Ferrari used their turbo technology from the last turbo F1 era in the F40 and where able to credibly market the F40 as derived from F1 Racing Technology.

Europeans may find 4 cylinder and also diesel race tech interesting but the rest of us think it's pretty ho hum! An Aussie Journo was over in europe at a recent WTCC event and was offered a spin in a Chevy Cruze, once strapped in he was asked by the driver if he'd done any race laps before, he replied a few in a V8 SuperCar, the response from the Cruze race driver was "F'K, you're gonna hate this" - summs up 4cyl powered race cars nicely imo!
"In downforce we trust"

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Pierce89
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Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 18:38

Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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djos wrote:As much as I find 4cylinders engines to be boring as f'k, Ferrari used their turbo technology from the last turbo F1 era in the F40 and where able to credibly market the F40 as derived from F1 Racing Technology.

Europeans may find 4 cylinder and also diesel race tech interesting but the rest of us think it's pretty ho hum! An Aussie Journo was over in europe at a recent WTCC event and was offered a spin in a Chevy Cruze, once strapped in he was asked by the driver if he'd done any race laps before, he replied a few in a V8 SuperCar, the response from the Cruze race driver was "F'K, you're gonna hate this" - summs up 4cyl powered race cars nicely imo!
exactly!!
but, the F40 was a V8
also, from Autosport:

Given that retention of the current engine formula – as lobbied for by Cosworth, Ferrari and Mercedes – would include F1's infamous 'freeze' clause, probably in conjunction with retuning or one-off upgrading, the best engine would remain the best. Thus Mercedes would have an advantage. Why voluntarily relinquish that, particularly as the alternative is to spend at least $150m no guarantee of success.

Again, is Mercedes being selfish, or simply pragmatic? Equally, the company is doing everything in its power to remain in F1, and if that constitutes selfishness, so be it. In any event, F1 has never been an altruistic pursuit?

One to go. In Spain, during the Friday FIA press conference, it became clear that the only engine supplier marching in step is Renault. Its parent company has pinned its future on cars such as the quirky, battery-powered, Nissan Leaf recently launched by its Japanese sister, and sees a bright future in hybrid technologies. Thus the company intimated that it would depart the sport if the planned new regulations are scrapped.
Renault has sold its team, but is still an F1 engine supplier © LAT


Once again, that is its choice and its right should that come to pass, and yet one hears hardly a murmur of 'selfishness' about that possibility. And that's despite the company making it clear via a briefing by president Carlos Ghosn in Brazil last year that Renault views F1 very much as a profit centre, hence the sale of its resource-draining team to Genii Capital while continuing as engine supplier to three paying customers.

However, given the expected costs of the new formula, Renault faces two options. It can either ramp up its annual charges substantially – by between 300 and 500 per cent - or subsidise the units.

And then, rather conveniently, Craig Pollock arrived. The Scot recently announced plans for the PURE engine complying with the 2013 regulations. Many in the paddock are ultra-sceptical, pointing to the his previous F1 involvement as team boss of the ill-fated BAR team, which burnt through hundreds of millions of dollars from 1999-2001 and didn't even register a podium until its owner BAT appointed David Richards to restructure it following Pollock's departure.
With less than 18 months to go before the first 2013 tests, PURE has no factory, no engine and no infrastructure. Those canvassed in the Barcelona paddock were extremely sceptical about the company's ability to get off the ground. "Do you remember when Max Mosley was desperate to get entrants for his budget cap formula and pulled the entry closing date forward?" one team boss asked pointedly. "Suddenly he had 47 entries or whatever from paper companies. Convenient but pie in the sky, and this [PURE] strikes me the same way."
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

xpensive
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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To my mind, JV's old ski-trainer Pollock is just as serious and credible as Ken Anderson or even Andrea Sasetti,
this PURE thing is just as outlandish, where is the money coming from and where is the workshop at, Switzerland?

Sounds like an FIA smokescreen to whip up an intrest, now that it's obvious that the lure of VW was just that, a lure.

It would be intersting to learn what the chassis-builders think of a four-banger, with its lack of lateral stiffness?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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xpensive wrote:It would be intersting to learn what the chassis-builders think of a four-banger, with its lack of lateral stiffness?
sure would, a 1.6ltr V6 would have been far more interesting! #-o
"In downforce we trust"

Jimi_Hendrix_1967
Jimi_Hendrix_1967
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Joined: 22 Mar 2011, 21:59

Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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Pierce89 wrote:
djos wrote:As much as I find 4cylinders engines to be boring as f'k, Ferrari used their turbo technology from the last turbo F1 era in the F40 and where able to credibly market the F40 as derived from F1 Racing Technology.

Europeans may find 4 cylinder and also diesel race tech interesting but the rest of us think it's pretty ho hum! An Aussie Journo was over in europe at a recent WTCC event and was offered a spin in a Chevy Cruze, once strapped in he was asked by the driver if he'd done any race laps before, he replied a few in a V8 SuperCar, the response from the Cruze race driver was "F'K, you're gonna hate this" - summs up 4cyl powered race cars nicely imo!
exactly!!
but, the F40 was a V8
also, from Autosport:

Given that retention of the current engine formula – as lobbied for by Cosworth, Ferrari and Mercedes – would include F1's infamous 'freeze' clause, probably in conjunction with retuning or one-off upgrading, the best engine would remain the best. Thus Mercedes would have an advantage. Why voluntarily relinquish that, particularly as the alternative is to spend at least $150m no guarantee of success.

Again, is Mercedes being selfish, or simply pragmatic? Equally, the company is doing everything in its power to remain in F1, and if that constitutes selfishness, so be it. In any event, F1 has never been an altruistic pursuit?

One to go. In Spain, during the Friday FIA press conference, it became clear that the only engine supplier marching in step is Renault. Its parent company has pinned its future on cars such as the quirky, battery-powered, Nissan Leaf recently launched by its Japanese sister, and sees a bright future in hybrid technologies. Thus the company intimated that it would depart the sport if the planned new regulations are scrapped.
Renault has sold its team, but is still an F1 engine supplier © LAT


Once again, that is its choice and its right should that come to pass, and yet one hears hardly a murmur of 'selfishness' about that possibility. And that's despite the company making it clear via a briefing by president Carlos Ghosn in Brazil last year that Renault views F1 very much as a profit centre, hence the sale of its resource-draining team to Genii Capital while continuing as engine supplier to three paying customers.

However, given the expected costs of the new formula, Renault faces two options. It can either ramp up its annual charges substantially – by between 300 and 500 per cent - or subsidise the units.

And then, rather conveniently, Craig Pollock arrived. The Scot recently announced plans for the PURE engine complying with the 2013 regulations. Many in the paddock are ultra-sceptical, pointing to the his previous F1 involvement as team boss of the ill-fated BAR team, which burnt through hundreds of millions of dollars from 1999-2001 and didn't even register a podium until its owner BAT appointed David Richards to restructure it following Pollock's departure.
With less than 18 months to go before the first 2013 tests, PURE has no factory, no engine and no infrastructure. Those canvassed in the Barcelona paddock were extremely sceptical about the company's ability to get off the ground. "Do you remember when Max Mosley was desperate to get entrants for his budget cap formula and pulled the entry closing date forward?" one team boss asked pointedly. "Suddenly he had 47 entries or whatever from paper companies. Convenient but pie in the sky, and this [PURE] strikes me the same way."
The autosport article has a point. I dont see real engine manufacturers like BMW or Honda wnating to step into the 4 cylinder format either. In fact, theengine freeze, fixed v8 format pushed them out (at least in BMWs case). More, because of the fix BMW could not showcase their superior skills and beat the crap out of anythingMercedes (ilmor) had to offer. In fact, its only since the rev limit Mercedes engines started to become reliable.

Anyway, im opposed to 4cyl format, and bet it will not be implemented for 2013.

Jimi_Hendrix_1967
Jimi_Hendrix_1967
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Joined: 22 Mar 2011, 21:59

Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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Pierce89 wrote:
djos wrote:As much as I find 4cylinders engines to be boring as f'k, Ferrari used their turbo technology from the last turbo F1 era in the F40 and where able to credibly market the F40 as derived from F1 Racing Technology.

Europeans may find 4 cylinder and also diesel race tech interesting but the rest of us think it's pretty ho hum! An Aussie Journo was over in europe at a recent WTCC event and was offered a spin in a Chevy Cruze, once strapped in he was asked by the driver if he'd done any race laps before, he replied a few in a V8 SuperCar, the response from the Cruze race driver was "F'K, you're gonna hate this" - summs up 4cyl powered race cars nicely imo!
exactly!!
but, the F40 was a V8
also, from Autosport:

Given that retention of the current engine formula – as lobbied for by Cosworth, Ferrari and Mercedes – would include F1's infamous 'freeze' clause, probably in conjunction with retuning or one-off upgrading, the best engine would remain the best. Thus Mercedes would have an advantage. Why voluntarily relinquish that, particularly as the alternative is to spend at least $150m no guarantee of success.

Again, is Mercedes being selfish, or simply pragmatic? Equally, the company is doing everything in its power to remain in F1, and if that constitutes selfishness, so be it. In any event, F1 has never been an altruistic pursuit?

One to go. In Spain, during the Friday FIA press conference, it became clear that the only engine supplier marching in step is Renault. Its parent company has pinned its future on cars such as the quirky, battery-powered, Nissan Leaf recently launched by its Japanese sister, and sees a bright future in hybrid technologies. Thus the company intimated that it would depart the sport if the planned new regulations are scrapped.
Renault has sold its team, but is still an F1 engine supplier © LAT


Once again, that is its choice and its right should that come to pass, and yet one hears hardly a murmur of 'selfishness' about that possibility. And that's despite the company making it clear via a briefing by president Carlos Ghosn in Brazil last year that Renault views F1 very much as a profit centre, hence the sale of its resource-draining team to Genii Capital while continuing as engine supplier to three paying customers.

However, given the expected costs of the new formula, Renault faces two options. It can either ramp up its annual charges substantially – by between 300 and 500 per cent - or subsidise the units.

And then, rather conveniently, Craig Pollock arrived. The Scot recently announced plans for the PURE engine complying with the 2013 regulations. Many in the paddock are ultra-sceptical, pointing to the his previous F1 involvement as team boss of the ill-fated BAR team, which burnt through hundreds of millions of dollars from 1999-2001 and didn't even register a podium until its owner BAT appointed David Richards to restructure it following Pollock's departure.
With less than 18 months to go before the first 2013 tests, PURE has no factory, no engine and no infrastructure. Those canvassed in the Barcelona paddock were extremely sceptical about the company's ability to get off the ground. "Do you remember when Max Mosley was desperate to get entrants for his budget cap formula and pulled the entry closing date forward?" one team boss asked pointedly. "Suddenly he had 47 entries or whatever from paper companies. Convenient but pie in the sky, and this [PURE] strikes me the same way."
The autosport article has a point. I dont see real engine manufacturers like BMW or Honda wnating to step into the 4 cylinder format either. In fact, theengine freeze, fixed v8 format pushed them out (at least in BMWs case). More, because of the fix BMW could not showcase their superior skills and beat the crap out of anythingMercedes (ilmor) had to offer. In fact, its only since the rev limit Mercedes engines started to become reliable.

Anyway, im opposed to 4cyl format, and bet it will not be implemented for 2013.

noname
noname
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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WhiteBlue wrote:Why do you think the petrol direct injection pressure was set at 500 bar? To set a goal for F1 to produce a technology that will help the whole automotive technology to push ahead!

Why do you think they decided to allow electric compounding? Obviously to push that technology which so far has not been used in passenger cars.
F1 did not gave the world any significant technology for a long time and I bet this will not change with 2013 rules in their current shape. It's more about the image than real benefits.

E-turbos are on the market for quite a long time (and many of them are being tested and developed). Long enough to give a chance to learn it's not a magic source of free energy. You can get some benefits, and it's worth to explore this path further, but you have to be careful to make sure harms are not bigger. Ask SCANIA why they ditched their e-turbo.
Sure, e-toys introduction in F1 will give us chance to learn thing or two (with the aim to apply this knowledge to "ordinary" cars), but it will not be technology to be applied to the road cars. Some general knowledge yes, but not the technology.

Not without the reason F1 OEMs are hiring people from mass production to do the "turbo" work, so the transfer is rather to than from F1.

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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Jimi_Hendrix_1967 wrote: ...
Anyway, im opposed to 4cyl format, and bet it will not be implemented for 2013.
I believe you don't have to worry, Jean Todt going against MrE, Montezuma and all the engine manufacturers bar Renault?

I don't think so.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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I say: Wait and see!

The longer is goes without any action the surer the new formula will come. If the F1 commission does not put a resolution in front of the July WMSC the turbo engine will automatically go through because it is already being developed by all parties and cannot be stopped beyond July.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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On this I actually agree WB, we have our moments don't we?

My suspicion is that m'sieu Todt is stuck between a rock and a harder place, he was counting on VW and possibly other parties to join, which never materialised and now when the established manufacturers have no fear of having their oligipol put out of joint, they wish to save their money for something else. Corporate bonuses perhaps?

But Renault's stance is more difficult to xplain, perhaps a legacy from them getting off the hook on the crashgate?

Unless of course, Montezuma et al go all independent as from 2013?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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strad
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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WB...Within a very few posts you called me and half a dozen others, stupid.
You are just as abrasive as you've been elsewhere.
Just because you think small turbo charged engines would be cool, it doesn't mean that people who see the sport differently from you are stupid.
You have what I concider an uneducated view of the past 60 years of F1. Hell there wasn't even a WCC til what '58 . There has been very little nexus between F1 and road cars in all this time. Why should there be now?
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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strad wrote:WB...Within a very few posts you called me and half a dozen others, stupid.
You are just as abrasive as you've been elsewhere.
Just because you think small turbo charged engines would be cool, it doesn't mean that people who see the sport differently from you are stupid.
You have what I concider an uneducated view of the past 60 years of F1. Hell there wasn't even a WCC til what '58 . There has been very little nexus between F1 and road cars in all this time. Why should there be now?
Because if F1 does not change its format to reflect the worlds essential energy saving policies, it will begin a steep decline.
Sponsors will soon leave F1 when they recognise the publics changes in attitude.
Just like most of the other lifetime motor heads on these forums, I would probably prefer the old V8s V10s and V12s.
However, I am certain that the change to more energy efficient powertrains cannot be avoided. I just hope agreement can be found before any damage to F1 is caused.

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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strad wrote: ...Just because you think small turbo charged engines would be cool, it doesn't mean that people who see the sport differently from you are stupid.
...
Don't get me wrong now, but I think Nelson's 1300 Hp 1985 Brabham-BMW four-banger, intercooler packed with dry-ice for qualification, was xtremely cool. It was odd and strange at the time, just as xotic as we all want Formula One to be.

But this proposal is not cool at all, a housewifes concept mixed with Greenpeace and IPCC, cars driven to a Soccer game consumes more petrol than an F1 race? Give me a straight fuel-formula, 50 cc/second, and let the dogs out! I don't believe for a second that everyone would arrive at the same conclusion as WB tried to correct me on another thread some time ago.

Btw, is NHRA and NASCAR under the FIA?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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HampusA
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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Jimi_Hendrix_1967 wrote:More, because of the fix BMW could not showcase their superior skills and beat the crap out of anythingMercedes (ilmor) had to offer. In fact, its only since the rev limit Mercedes engines started to become reliable.

Anyway, im opposed to 4cyl format, and bet it will not be implemented for 2013.
Agreed, BMW makes some fantastic engines. It´s really their thing they do better then all imo.
I think that BMW would make a very nice 2013 engine if they wanted. They have knowledge on 4 potters and turbocharging.
I would like to see one manufacturer build an engine so we can get some sound tests.
The truth will come out...