Mercedes GP W02

[jav]

jet-

I don't think it's fair to ask the detractors- "what would you do to the car"- becuase none here has the benefit of the data the team does. Even if we did- I'm not convinced any on here would know what to do with it but the point remains, offering suggestions is futile.

Perhaps critisizing the team is not fair either but I think it's more fair than the latter. The results this year, are worse than last year and clearly contrary to what the teams own stated goals were. The history speaks for itself and it's damning.

My whole gripe is that as a manufacturer, I find it indefensible that they are struggling, more so than other teams using their engines, with basic issues such as cooling. And struggling REPEATEDLY. It's not like they got the design wrong, got to testing and realized their mistake and fixed it. Their repeatedly changing the band-aid, at the possible expense of pursuing other enhancements. theyv'e been doing this for months.

If they are this ineffective at addressing heat dissipation- when every other team on the grid has come to grips with it (save redbull on the KERS)- then their isn't much hope that they'll effectively tackle other more daunting tasks like improving down force, mechancial grip, tire freindliness, balance, or even developing a larger setup sweet spot. Not only is the car a midfield car, the teams development ability appears to be even worse.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

My whole gripe is that as a manufacturer, I find it indefensible that they are struggling, more so than other teams using their engines, with basic issues such as cooling.

Um only McLaren are outperforming them. Force India are not faster or the same pace as Mercedes.

My whole gripe is that as a manufacturer, I find it indefensible that they are struggling

Toyota, Honda, BMW et al? Whats the link to Manfucturer = Success?

The W02 is unique in that its a shorter wheelbased, paltypuss nosed, pull rod suspended, side exit exhaust'd car.

They have gone a certain direction again, and it isnt working....yet. Now the problem I have with critique of this car is that Mercedes have tried to be a bit different.
You will never be winners simply copying. Mercedes will move forward this year, even if takes it to the last race to show they can be competitive.

My opinion stems from them blowing the top of the diffuser, with the strakes to keep the heat inboard of the rear tyres. There must be some heat directed at the tyres when you consider a car entering high speed corners. Also, alot of the energy coming from the exhaust dissipates quickly when exposed to the air as early as the Mercedes system. The energy loss here is evident when compared with all the top teams and Renault. Hell even Sauber!


With Mercedes developing the FEE(according to various AMuS statements and Brawn himself) and Bob Bell aboard(will know of the system) I see Mercedes resolving some of the issues palguing them.
IF it appears, expect Mercedes to make a decent gain IMO.

[Ferraripilot]

You're right JET and it's as I have been saying all along, championships are not won by copying. MB has a great idea, but poor execution at the moment. Mclaren has a great idea and are executing it well, or had the data to make it work when no one else believed they could. Either way it takes time and I hope MB carve their path to victory.

This was the year to be different and get in on the ground floor of something new. No one is going to do Red Bull like Red Bull. Make them copy you, but building a processor quicker than a hexa-core Intel is not easily done if you get my meaning.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I just think Mercedes potential is higher from just doing the FEE than those ahead of them or with pretences of being ahead of them(Renault).
The FEE will provide an ointment to an ailment if you like.

More downforce. Less wear. Faster and more consistent.

Until then, I will continue facing the barrage with my tin hat. Delusional or inspired, I remain convinced Mercedes will come good in time.

[jav]

Um only McLaren are outperforming them. Force India are not faster or the same pace as Mercedes.

I said nothing about "outperforming" - merely that Mercedes, as the engine manufacturer, designed and built the engines. That Mercedes Gp "the team" can't seem to come to grips with heat dissipation of their own principles engine- when other teams have (including Force India)- speaks poorly of "the team".

Toyota, Honda, BMW et al? Whats the link to Manfucturer = Success?...
.

Again- my main gripe isn't with the lack of success per se, although that's certianly the end result. My point is that this team seems ineffective at addressing even basic problems (such as cooling). I'd take much less issue if they were addressing different problems (having succesfully dealt with past problems) but thats not the case. How can a bystander feel confident they'll advance if they can't come to grips with long standing issues?

They have gone a certain direction again, and it isnt working....yet. Now the problem I have with critique of this car is that Mercedes have tried to be a bit different.

I don't see it that way. McLaren went a bit different- what did Mercedes do that was different other than the short wheel base- which arguably isn't working? The Double deck radiator- which arguably they haven't come to grips with. Their glued wheel nuts- which I'll give them- but that's the extent of their innovation. I don't even want to get into their front wing.

You will never be winners simply copying. Mercedes will move forward this year, even if takes it to the last race to show they can be competitive.

Again- disagree. When copying produces better results than failed innovation- there's an arguement to be made. History is littered with successful copiers and failed innovators so that's a poor reference. I do agree with you- I'd rather be a successful innovater than a successful copier but right now- Merc is neither.

Also- if Merc takes to the last race to show they can be competitive and finish 5th or 6th in points- how could that be viewed as a positive?

I admire your vigor- I really do want them to succeed. I'm just done hoping. I'll believe it when I see it and rejoice. Until then- I'm calling a turd a turd.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The W02 is very far from being a turd. A turd silverarrow maybe, but a turd F1 car is being overly harsh and unjustified.

How is it they have pace in qualifying, but fall back in the race? Did it not occur that perhaps the reason Mercedes are quick over a lap maybe the reason they are hindered over a race distance?

Cooling and Tyres.

You mentioned their double radiator layout. It is unique so far as Iam aware. Issues that may not have had precedent within the team and so are not easily solved.
Does this mean Mercedes should revert to standard arrangement and lose a percieved advantage?
Of course not.

Does it mean they should persevere until they have found a solution that can work alongside KERS(their first year running it btw, McLarens 2nd). Of course yes.

I explained the team have or have been looking at an FEE system, this will also help to some extent with their tyre issues. No one knows, but Mercedes will not be sitting on their hands, not with Bob Bell lurking round the factory....

[scuderiafan]

The whole thought behind the manufacturer = success is that theoretically, a manufacturer should be able to spend more money on research and development to come up with a better performing car. This however, isn't necessarily true. Look at BMW, Toyota, Honda. They've all dropped out with minimal success. I think the real key that has made Ferrari and McLaren strong as manufacturers is the fact that they sell products to fuel their F1 team, where other manufacturers sell products to make money from them, and then a fraction of that money goes into the F1 team.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The whole thought behind the manufacturer = success is that theoretically, a manufacturer should be able to spend more money on research and development to come up with a better performing car. This however, isn't necessarily true. Look at BMW, Toyota, Honda. They've all dropped out with minimal success. I think the real key that has made Ferrari and McLaren strong as manufacturers is the fact that they sell products to fuel their F1 team, where other manufacturers sell products to make money from them, and then a fraction of that money goes into the F1 team.

Not really. Williams and Sauber would both counter that. And Ferrari have now long since past the days since they sold cars to simply go racing. They have shareholders.....................

[aral]

I explained the team have or have been looking at an FEE system, this will also help to some extent with their tyre issues....

A car needs to be designed around a certain concept, so just going to a FEE means nothing. It could throw the aerodynamics even further out.
The Red Bull was designed around its tight aero, and it is the overall cohesive package that makes the difference.
The Mercedes was designed around a particular package, so just moving to a FEE is no miracle cure.
Brawn is now saying that the 2012 car will be fully competitive, but did he not say that about the 2010 car, and the 2011 car?

[jav]

jet-

your right. The car isn't a turd in the sense that it's not a Virgin or HRT. I use the term TURD to represent that it fails to deliver that which the team has defined as their goal- being to improve on last years performance.

I don't think anyone can argue that last years car- though technically flawed per Merc - produce better results than W02 has to date. That's just fact. it is in this sense that I call W02 a turd.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

So Renault have a floor that isnt flat?

By that token, the F-duct wouldnt work for any other team bar McLaren...we know that not to be the case.

The principle remains the same, and there is nothing on the Renault that cannot be replicated on the Mercedes. Note, its not easy...but then its not beyond the realms capability either. In addition, some will work better than others I accept that. What it will do IF it happens is help Mercedes alleviate their problems SHOULD it work.

[aral]

So Renault have a floor that isnt flat?

By that token, the F-duct wouldnt work for any other team bar McLaren...we know that not to be the case.

The principle remains the same, and there is nothing on the Renault that cannot be replicated on the Mercedes. Note, its not easy...but then its not beyond the realms capability either. In addition, some will work better than others I accept that. What it will do IF it happens is help Mercedes alleviate their problems SHOULD it work.

I don't know why you attached that diagram. It means nothing. It is not of a Mercedes profile, and exhaust is aimed downwards, with gasses running under the car. Maybe you are suggesting that they be used to turn the car into a hovercraft?
Interesting theory.

[Ferraripilot]

The fact the MB is even looking into the FEE tells one there is merit to the design. If W02 could benefit from more centrally located downforce -which I believe is what the FEE is really good for- then it could work well. None of us have the data showing what the car really needs in terms of points of downforce on what part of the car combined with 'Z' suspension geometry so this is all moot, but again I emphasise if the FEE were not at all interesting to MB then they would not be designing their own unit.

Take from that whatever you believe their needs might be vs what good the FEE could bring. Vague enough ? lol


Anyone still remember Haug's recent line where he said there were many exciting things in line, but Ross would hit him if he said anything? I suppose if they don't deliver soon it will all be MB fluff

[bot6]

I don't think we're going to see an FEE on the W02, ever. It seems clearer and clearer that their issue is rear end grip, and the FEE would rather increase downforce nearer to the front of the car. Plus, the KERS is packaged in the sidepods in the Mercedes and the cooling issues would only be magnified by running the exhausts half way through the car to bring them to the front.

Maybe on the W03 as Brawn said he found the idea interesting.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Maybe you are suggesting that they be used to turn the car into a hovercraft?
Interesting theory.

Er, no. Its basically how the system works, nothing sinister or stupid about the diagram is there?