Bahrain GP situation: postponed, reinstated, cancelled

[ringo]

Here's a good one for you whiteblue.

Let's say Vettel needed the points to stay in the championship.

And Webber wasn't going or Button and Alonso decided to give his car to the 3rd driver for the whole weekend.

Hamilton being the no gooder that he is, doesn't give a flying roach balls and decides to race alone with the HRTs and force Indias.

What does Vettel do, lose the championship or race?

Is Bahrain's perceived internal affairs more important than his career achievements?

Keep in mind points are being handed out like any normal race sanctioned by the FIA.
If he races and gets points he stays in the championship, if Hamilton gets any points at all Hamilton wins the WDC.

What says you White Blue.

[PlatinumZealot]

A rather unfortunate post, Andrew. Mature humans recognize that perfection is a goal to be pursued, but never attained. That being the case, those same mature humans work hard to discriminate among the varying degrees of "right and wrong." We (some of us) recognize that lack of perfection is not the same as total corruption. You are right: no country has a "spotless human rights record." But that is a statement that ends thoughtful discussion, rather than recognizing the need for such discussion. The obvious, and useless response is "so?"

The obvious response is not "so" at all, you are quite wrong, so kindly leave the patronizing tones at the door. It is question of where do you draw the line. To my mind, a government exterminating their own people (if the western media is to be believed) is just as bad as the UK and US government killing thousands in the middle east for cheap oil, whilst hiding behind something as noble as "democracy".

Citing Bahrain's recent human rights violations is weak compared with years of human rights violations by the so called western super-powers.

I see the point you are making, but I still say the line needs to be drawn somewhere...so is it a Libian Grand Prix next, with Martin on his gridwalk asking the colonel his thoughts on witnessing F1 for the first time?

If it is safe then why not? Colonel Gadaffi will be in favour again once the mess is sorted out. Seems to be the run of things where he is concerned. He falls in and out of favour depending which way the wind's blowing.

I dont think f1 should be getting involved with politics, as its a sport not a political party, so I say unless there is danger to the drivers/ fans / teams let them race

Darn right!!! =D>

My view as well.. Sport brings togetherness. Remember World Cup 2010? North Korea team! Now that was kick ass!

Now check this out... this is why I say avoid the sensatialist media when it comes to these things: Buemi's uncle lives there, and Buemi say it is fine to race, just the media are blowing things out of Proportion. If I don't live In Bahrain, I should be cool and not say anything until the race...

here is the vid, go to 56 minutes and see..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UYEuKaf3FM[/youtube]

LETS RACE!!

[Fil]

Safety of all involved is the only parameter worthy of measuring here. If that can be guaranteed, then the show can go on.



If you were to demand any international sport to get on a political high horse, there would barely be a country left to go to..

Australian GP - Live Animal Exports/Offshore Refugee Processing/Indigenous People Treatment
Malaysian GP - Judicial caning & torture of refugees & migrants/exploitation of migrant workers
Chinese GP - Tibet Human Rights/Freedom of speech suppression etc
Turkish GP - Human rights concerns against Turkish Kurds/language suppression etc. Failure of recognition of Cyprus
Spanish/European GP - Basque region conflicts & restrictions to freedom of speech & language
Canadian GP - Religiously segregated schools/Bill 101's restriction on the use of English language.
British GP - Invasion of Iraq/Involvement in Libyan conflict
German GP - German involvement in Afghan conflict/Asylum seeker deportation controversy
Hungarian GP - Violations against human right to private life/Freedom of expression/press concerns
Italian GP - Tunisian deportation & torture violations/Roma settlement evictions
Singapore GP - Severe restrictions on freedom of expression, association, and assembly
Japanese GP - Prisoner conditions, many concerns about govt inaction during nuclear powerstation crisis
South Korean GP - Freedom of speech suppression (National Security Law)
Bahrain GP - Severe restrictions on freedom of expression, association, and assembly/Political uprisings
Abu Dhabi GP - Restrictions on freedom of speech, and press/labor rights/inaction on sexual violence/women's rights
Brazilian GP - Ongoing police brutality/treatment of indigenous people
Indian GP - Human rights abuses in Kashmir region/Detentions without charge/Police brutality & custodial deaths/judicial use of 'narcoanalysis'



Where do you draw the line people? Which of the above human rights abuses are you comfortable with, to be happy for Formula 1 to travel to all the above countries?



Leave the politics to the politicians, and the sport to the sportsmen.

The only discussion about the merits of the Bahrain GP's reinstatement should be safety.

[Giblet]

@Fil.

The Canadian one is a little weak. We have two school systems, and you choose if you want your kids in public or separate schools. You divert your taxes to he system your children are in. The schools are not themselves segregated.

Also, we are officially a bilingual country, so what you mention is completely normal.

Now about those baby seals........ That would be something I can understand, but we were clubbing them long before we had a race.

As for where I draw the line... I choose murder of humans and the fact they already lost their initial calendar spot. We went to Malaysia knowing everything about their caning, we go the US next year even though they have been all over doing what they do on the planet, but again, par for the course. Full disclosure.

When Bahrain was chosen, it didn't have this issue with their leaders ordering full automatic machine guns mowing down peaceful protestors.

I don't trust countries that have just recently started killing their own people with my safety, a non Muslim import.

Bahrain has a entirely new political climate now.

I truly hope nothing happens and I am worried for nothing, but I don't understand why we care about a race that nobody really bothers attending, and considering some of the reasons races have been dropped (Canada being earlier then the EU on tobacco sponsorship), and we were punished with the race being taken away.

Just glad we didn't go on a murder spree party, we might have ben nuked for that.

[andartop]

Australian GP - Live Animal Exports/Offshore Refugee Processing/Indigenous People Treatment
Malaysian GP - Judicial caning & torture of refugees & migrants/exploitation of migrant workers
Chinese GP - Tibet Human Rights/Freedom of speech suppression etc
Turkish GP - Human rights concerns against Turkish Kurds/language suppression etc. Failure of recognition of Cyprus
Spanish/European GP - Basque region conflicts & restrictions to freedom of speech & language
Canadian GP - Religiously segregated schools/Bill 101's restriction on the use of English language.
British GP - Invasion of Iraq/Involvement in Libyan conflict
German GP - German involvement in Afghan conflict/Asylum seeker deportation controversy
Hungarian GP - Violations against human right to private life/Freedom of expression/press concerns
Italian GP - Tunisian deportation & torture violations/Roma settlement evictions
Singapore GP - Severe restrictions on freedom of expression, association, and assembly
Japanese GP - Prisoner conditions, many concerns about govt inaction during nuclear powerstation crisis
South Korean GP - Freedom of speech suppression (National Security Law)
Bahrain GP - Severe restrictions on freedom of expression, association, and assembly/Political uprisings
Abu Dhabi GP - Restrictions on freedom of speech, and press/labor rights/inaction on sexual violence/women's rights
Brazilian GP - Ongoing police brutality/treatment of indigenous people
Indian GP - Human rights abuses in Kashmir region/Detentions without charge/Police brutality & custodial deaths/judicial use of 'narcoanalysis'

=D> =D> =D>

Still, I think the race should NOT go ahead, as:
1. They couldn't hold the race as scheduled
2. The teams never signed up for racing in December
3. The Indian GP should take place when originally scheduled

Surely, had it been another country in their place any of these reasons would have been good enough for the FIA to cancel the race..

[Fil]

The Canadian one is a little weak. [.. ..]

Yeah i know.. I couldn't even find anything against Monaco, or Belgium! (Kudos to them!)


For the record, i wholly agree with this:

I think the race should NOT go ahead, as:
1. They couldn't hold the race as scheduled
2. The teams never signed up for racing in December
3. The Indian GP should take place when originally scheduled

But I'll still watch.

[andrew]

As for where I draw the line... I choose murder of humans and the fact they already lost their initial calendar spot. We went to Malaysia knowing everything about their caning, we go the US next year even though they have been all over doing what they do on the planet, but again, par for the course. Full disclosure.

I don’t see who you can draw the line like that at all. So it is ok to illegally imprison, beat and suppress people, but God forbid they actually kill them! All human rights violations are unacceptable. Turning a blind eye to some human rights violations is inconsistent.

When Bahrain was chosen, it didn't have this issue with their leaders ordering full automatic machine guns mowing down peaceful protestors.

I have read comments that this has been greatly exaggerated by the western media. The opinion of someone who is actually in Bahrain would be valuable as most of us are outside looking in and seeing only what we are allowed to see.

I don't trust countries that have just recently started killing their own people with my safety, a non Muslim import.

So doing it in another country for the weakest of reasons is ok? As long as we get some cheap oil it is ok to kill a few defenceless civilians, whilst at the same time destroying a one of the oldest cultures all in the name of democracy, when in reality a peaceful country is destroyed and turned into a war zone.

[Giblet]

There was no exaggeration. You are completely ill informed. If you can watch this video, then explain how those murders are embellished. Well I guess they weren't murdered that badly right?

Warning: Very Graphic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwnUQcKX ... ntrinter=1

The cowards didn't even have the brass ones to be seen. Just a rain of automatic fire from out of sight cowards.

Regardless, opinions will differ. I just feel murder trumps many other human rights issues from other countries. I'll keep my 'first world problems' and be happy that I can protest my government peacefully if I so choose.

[xpensive]

Since the hiring a French general for king, the Swedish army has not fired a shot in anger for 200 years, why the Bahrain GP should be held on a temporary street circuit in Stockholm! Who knows, that way even JET might get laid?

[andrew]

Actually I totally feel that a country that was not murdering in the streets, and has now started, deserves some sort of sanction.

Is this an exaggeration?

Warning: Very Graphic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwnUQcKX ... ntrinter=1

If you see a single reason why they were opened fire on, maybe I can understand. It was peaceful, no weapons.

If you think this is OK, and 'exaggerated', then I truly have nothing else to discuss.

Of course killing innocent unarmed protestors is not OK. In the clip there is no visible reason for those people being killed however we are only seeing one side of the coin.

Take Lybia as an example. In the UK Col. Gadaffi is being painted as some sort of mad dictator and the rebels as freedom fighters who we should be supporting. Everything that the mass media is reporting has the same rhetoric and appears extremely one sided, and it is difficult to uncover the actual truth and not the truth we are wanted to believe.

[WhiteBlue]

Here's a good one for you whiteblue.

Let's say Vettel needed the points to stay in the championship.

And Webber wasn't going or Button and Alonso decided to give his car to the 3rd driver for the whole weekend.

Hamilton being the no gooder that he is, doesn't give a flying roach balls and decides to race alone with the HRTs and force Indias.

What does Vettel do, lose the championship or race?

Is Bahrain's perceived internal affairs more important than his career achievements?

Keep in mind points are being handed out like any normal race sanctioned by the FIA.
If he races and gets points he stays in the championship, if Hamilton gets any points at all Hamilton wins the WDC.

What says you White Blue.

What is the point of such a hypothetical scenario. I'm pretty sure that F1 will do the right thing in the end and stay away. The al Khalifas have murdered peaceful citizens with the help of the Saudis and their people will not accept that.

With the known habit of suicide demonstrations in that part of the world you can easily predict that someone may try to disrupt the event by invading the track in front of the cameras. It could easily be a marshal, an employee of BIC or just a very unhappy person who got a spectator pass.

All kind of people have lost loved ones in the suppression of the pearl roundabout demonstrations. Hundreds have been wounded, crippled and tortured. A vicious incident is more likely than not having one. The teams will know that and will try not to go. The FiA should know better than trying to stage a race in a country that effectively is a bloody murderous dictatorship.

[andrew]

http://www.pitpass.com/43828-Time-for-F ... ke-a-stand

Pretty good article by Mike Lawrence. I recommend reading.

Very one sided and not balanced at all. All countries have their seedy side.

[Giblet]

however we are only seeing one side of the coin.

I am unable to think of any real or hypothetical situation where murdering unarmed people is OK. Please enlighten me to what the other side of the coin is? Were they zombies? Maybe the shooters were trying to fire warning shots over their heads, but are really really really bad shots? I you can't give me an example, I think there is some denial going on.

Take Lybia as an example. In the UK Col. Gadaffi is being painted as some sort of mad dictator and the rebels as freedom fighters who we should be supporting. Everything that the mass media is reporting has the same rhetoric and appears extremely one sided, and it is difficult to uncover the actual truth and not the truth we are wanted to believe.

He has been crazy for years. He has said in a public speech that youth are rebelling because they were given hallucinogenic pills and then entered the police station to reverse their own criminal records.

He has been the benchmark for insane world leaders since the 80's.

http://www.beyondthefirstworld.com/?p=17866

[Giblet]

http://www.pitpass.com/43828-Time-for-F ... ke-a-stand

Pretty good article by Mike Lawrence. I recommend reading.

Very one sided and not balanced at all. All countries have their seedy side.

Murdering peaceful civilians in the streets is not seedy. Seedy is China stopping production two months before the Olympics to reduce smog. Seedy is a dive bar with bikers in it. Seedy is a red light district.

I feel like your stance is the murders were absolutely fine and we should forget about them, is that the case? Bahrain deserves a reprieve?

Why? because other countries do 'stuff'?

[andrew]

however we are only seeing one side of the coin.

I am unable to think of any real or hypothetical situation where murdering unarmed people is OK. Please enlighten me to what the other side of the coin is? Were they zombies? Maybe the shooters were trying to fire warning shots over their heads, but are really really really bad shots? I you can't give me an example, I think there is some denial going on.

I have no where stated that killing unarmed people is OK. However, there are always 2 sides to every story, this is an irrefutable fact. I have not been to Bahrain so I cannot comment on the actual truth and have to make do with a version of the truth supplied by the media, as most of us have to.

Take Lybia as an example. In the UK Col. Gadaffi is being painted as some sort of mad dictator and the rebels as freedom fighters who we should be supporting. Everything that the mass media is reporting has the same rhetoric and appears extremely one sided, and it is difficult to uncover the actual truth and not the truth we are wanted to believe.

He has been crazy for years. He has said in a public speech that youth are rebelling because they were given hallucinogenic pills and then entered the police station to reverse their own criminal records.

He has been the benchmark for insane world leaders since the 80's.

http://www.beyondthefirstworld.com/?p=17866

Not knowing the man personally, I can’t comment on his mental state. All I know is what has been produced by a biased western media and that he is currently out of favour with the US and the UK. The bias is obvious given the lengths that the media and government are going to paint him as some sort of mad villain.

I’m not saying he is a saint, but o my mind he is no worse than Bush, Blair, Obama or Cameron. All are guilty of humanitarian crimes, just some seem to be acceptable which I find sickening.