Bahrain GP situation: postponed, reinstated, cancelled

[andrew]

I feel like your stance is the murders were absolutely fine and we should forget about them, is that the case? Bahrain deserves a reprieve?

Why? because other countries do 'stuff'?

You are quite wrong there. I never condone killing, especially unarmed civilians.

What I find disturbing is the inconsistancy and that some human rights violations are deemed acceptable and some are not. All human rights violations are unacceptable, there is never an excuse.

Ultimately my stance is, there are observers acting like their countires muck doesn't stink. If the Bahraini government is guilty of killing as many unarmed protestors as we are led to believe then there should be sanctions raised against them. Ultimately, this will be done by the UN, a body made up of countries (some of which) have committed crimes which are just as bad or worse than the crimes that the Bahraini government are being accused of.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Blair, Cameron and Obama in the same brackets as Gaddafi?

Wow, what do you base that on?

Bottom line is, an F1 race in Bahrain this year is tantamount to dancing on peoples graves.

[myurr]

Further to what Andrew says, those sanctions can and should be managed by international bodies like the UN. It should not be for F1 and other sporting bodies to get involved.

This thread also appears to be full of hypocrisy where some state murders are bad and therefore that country should lose its GP, but police brutality and state sanctioned murders in China and India, for example, should go unpunished because they have happened behind closed doors and away from public scrutiny. Should Abu Dhabi lose it's GP this year because UAE sent troops to Bahrain to protect key oil installations and infrastructure from the protestors?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

So by putting petrol in your tank that makes you equally guilty Myurr?

There is a stark difference.

[andrew]

Blair, Cameron and Obama in the same brackets as Gaddafi?

Wow, what do you base that on?

Afghanistan and Iraq were illegal wars. Hundreds of defenceless civilians killed.

[Giblet]

You are quite wrong there. I never condone killing, especially unarmed civilians.

I don't think you do. I doubt anyone in this forum condones it. I just wonder what the other side of the coin could be in Bahrain as you mentioned.

What I find disturbing is the inconsistancy and that some human rights violations are deemed acceptable and some are not. All human rights violations are unacceptable, there is never an excuse.

Sure, but we are talking about one specific situation in Bahrain. It was something that happened independently and was unique unto itself. They already lost their race this year. If the race was scheduled originally for the date it is now, I would have trouble the race being used as a political tool, and the FIA refusing to go after assurances things are OK. Why should we go back now though. Bernie loves contracts, and in the contract there was the "Force Majeure" clause, but that is a force outside of your control.

Obviously shooting people is a choice, not Force Majeure.

Ultimately my stance is, there are observers acting like their countires muck doesn't stink. If the Bahraini government is guilty of killing as many unarmed protestors as we are led to believe then there should be sanctions raised against them. Ultimately, this will be done by the UN, a body made up of countries (some of which) have committed crimes which are just as bad or worse than the crimes that the Bahraini government are being accused of.

Again, you can't talk about other places and observers acting like they don't stink because that has nothing to do with the issue of Bahrain.

That video I showed you is not fake. I can not understand how documented news is an if but you are entitled to your opinion even in the face of overwhelming facts.

I understand the reasons people want the race to go on, and I respect the people getting a race, but it doesn't mean what happened is any less horrible and tragic and should not be forgotten just because the race takes place.

A respected Neurosurgeon at Manama's biggest hospital and inspecting the bodies, reported that protesters "were all shot from close range," adding that forces "do shoot to kill."

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

How is that in any way compareable to killing your own civilians Andrew? Last I checked I didnt see police open fire with semi automatic weapons with the express intention of killing civilians at a demo in the US or UK.

It has become fashionable for people to call the US and the UK "equally bad". But I can say that the world would have been far worse off had Al Qaida and the Taliban been left to their own devices to FORCE their religious views onto you.

Iraqi's can still do as they choose, through democrtically elected governance. How bad those American ands Brits are now eh?

Needless to say, had the UK and the US not gone into Afghanistan, You may have seen the Taliban protected Al Qaida cultivate more suicide bombers to get even more graphic results as in 9/11 and 7/7.
There role in these countries is not to rule the people, but to educate and empower the people of the countries involved. Sadly you cannot do that with choclates and poems when dealing with the Taliban, and a guy who kills his own with chemical weapons.

In Bahrains case, the minority rule the majority. They went on an all out offensive to nip a revolt in the bud. Why? Because elections are a pipe dream and the minority live in secluded luxury that the majority can only dream of.

Now they've been "put in their place" after a few hundred innocents were murdered it's the same as America reacting to the worst terrorist attack in the history of mankind?

[myurr]

So Giblet is this a moral issue or a contractual issue? If it's about contracts then fine, we can talk about Bahrain being in violation of their contract and how this is a special case of leniency on the part of Bernie and the FIA.

If this is a moral issue then whether or not the race organisers were in contractual breach shouldn't come into it and we should also be looking at the moral standards of other host countries.

[Giblet]

What I am saying is morally I don't want to go. But contractually, the clause in the contract in that allows for a rescheduled race is not valid, as force majeure I don't think applies. It's not out of their control to shoot people.

The issue being moral or contractual is perched high atop a fence, able to fall hard to either side.

Concisely, I feel morally the FIA should make a stand and choose to not return, and if this is challenged, fall back on to the contracts. Either way, the cards are in the hands of the FIA, then the teams, but ultimately with the GPDA.

It is a strange position for the drivers to be in.

[Mr Alcatraz]

Blair, Cameron and Obama in the same brackets as Gaddafi?

Wow, what do you base that on?

Bottom line is, an F1 race in Bahrain this year is tantamount to dancing on peoples graves.

A good metaphor, although I think a more meaningful one would be:
Finding a person clinging to life that you thought you had murdered before you buried him a shallow grave, and proceeding to do your worst to torture him the rest of the way to death for being uncooperative.

My posture is still the same.
If they do have it I will not view it unless there is some sort of discernable conciliation, then I will consider doing so.
@ Giblet; I admire your constitution. I don't have your wear-with-all to continue to refute the same justifications to express a similar posture as I hold. I would get to the point of thinking I was just
Props bro.
I guess it is easier for you since you have a commitment to be here anyway…. :-/

[andrew]

Again, you can't talk about other places and observers acting like they don't stink because that has nothing to do with the issue of Bahrain.

But it does. The very people who will eventually issue sanctions to Bahrain are the same people who are guilty of doing pretty much the same thing in other countries all in the name of “democracy”.

That video I showed you is not fake. I can not understand how documented news is an if but you are entitled to your opinion even in the face of overwhelming facts.

I’m not for one minute suggesting that this is fake however this is one incident which has been very much publicised. Documented news is not fact, but a news channels opinion based on an interpretation of what has been viewed.

In the UK we are fed reports very much against the Bahraini government. When I mentioned there being 2 sides to every story, I would much rather have this balanced with the Bahraini governments side, only then will a logical, accurate and true picture of events be uncovered, thus allowing us observers to reach a better informed conclusion.

[myurr]

How is that in any way compareable to killing your own civilians Andrew? Last I checked I didnt see police open fire with semi automatic weapons with the express intention of killing civilians at a demo in the US or UK.

It has become fashionable for people to call the US and the UK "equally bad". But I can say that the world would have been far worse off had Al Qaida and the Taliban been left to their own devices to FORCE their religious views onto you.

Iraqi's can still do as they choose, through democrtically elected governance. How bad those American ands Brits are now eh?

Needless to say, had the UK and the US not gone into Afghanistan, You may have seen the Taliban cultivate more suicide bombers to get even more graphic results as in 9/11 and 7/7.
There role in these countries is not to rule the people, but to educate and empower the people of the countries involved. Sadly you cannot do that with choclates and poems when dealing with the Taliban, and a guy who kills his own with chemical weapons.

In Bahrains case, the minority rule the majority. They went on an all out offensive to nip a revolt in the bud. Why? Because elections are a pipe dream and the minority live in secluded luxury that the majority can only dream of.

Now they've been "put in their place" after a few hundred innocents were murdered it's the same as America reacting to the worst terrorist attack in the history of mankind?

JET, I don't think anyone is saying that what happened in Bahrain is okay or that the UK and US are as bad. However I personally feel that some other countries are every bit as bad if not more so, such as China and India where these state murders are not one off events but an annual feature. I also believe that such moral judgements should be the remit of the UN and the like, and not of the FIA.

To muddy the waters further did you also know that one of the organisers of these 'peaceful' demonstrations, and a former political leader in the elected part of the parliament, called for those who introduced the womens equality laws in Bahrain to be killed. Whilst the majority of the protestors were peaceful there were also armed and violent elements. In some ways the Bahraini royal family is actually more westernised than their populace having introduced female politicians and ministers on their half of the parliament. Not one woman has been elected in Bahrain and the majority support the repression of women's rights.

Does any of that justify the shootings? Hell no. But it's most certainly shades of grey rather than black and white.

Finally, whilst I agree with the US and UK motives for action in Iraq and Afganistan, what proportion of the World do you think agrees? Reckon it's even 50%?

[Giblet]

Thanks Tazio - I'm also on my PC at home all day every day right now as I quit my glazing job and am in the process of looking for something back in the white collar world.

Plus, I've been doing nothing but reading/editing/pondering other people's posts for weeks and now I am actively participating in a conversation with full concentration and quite enjoying it.

[FW17]

However I personally feel that some other countries are every bit as bad if not more so, such as China and India where these state murders are not one off events but an annual feature.

To compare human rights in India to Bahrain, You are Mad

[myurr]

However I personally feel that some other countries are every bit as bad if not more so, such as China and India where these state murders are not one off events but an annual feature.

To compare human rights in India to Bahrain, You are Mad

I know, in many ways things are better in Bahrain than in large parts of India. Figures for those killed in Bahrain seem to be around the 24 - 30 level.

In India 800 people a year a killed during torture whilst in police custody. Many of those are innocent, having been arrested and had confessions beaten out of them to save wealthy or influential individuals.