Bahrain GP situation: postponed, reinstated, cancelled

[Richard]

JET - it isn't N Korea or Burma!

On a global scale of evil to saintly Bahrain is probably middle/average, some democratic representations, they have freedom of movement, etc

Sure, it seems a restricted place to EU and N.American eyes, but it is actually a reasonably open peaceful society in the context of that region.

[Richard]

I fully support the right of free speech and for protestors to demonstrate. However those protests should always be peaceful and should not interfere with those who have differing opinions. They should about raising awareness and demonstrating levels of support, and never about disruption, or violence, or intimidation, or confrontation.

"Always peaceful"? There comes a point where civil disobedience is the only option, and that by definition is always disruptive and rarely peaceful. Egypt and Tunisia are good examples of that.

When conventional civil protests fail then it is often legitimate to escalate until the crowd have no choice but to violently overthrow the ruler. The uprising in Bangazi is an example of where the civilian population took up arms. Same happened in Romania.

Of course the Balkans over the last 200 years is a lesson in how it can all go wrong.

[myurr]

@richard_leeds - apologies, my phraseology somewhat betrays my westernised thinking. Of course there are very extreme edge cases, but I don't think Bahrain qualifies as one of them.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

What absolute hyperbolic bull.

So the Bahrain government are not known for using Tanks, Helicopters and bullets?
Maybe the videos didnt provide enough resonance as to exactly the kind of force they are willing to dish out my friend.
Arabs are not the sort to turn the other cheek, any demonstration that would take place over the GP weekend would pass of peacefully.
Come the Monday, and with the Media gone you honestly think the Authorites will not commence a witch hunt?

Going by the countries recent history and the rhetoric used on both sides that is grossly short sighted.

Hyperbolic bull it is not. THIS COULD HAPPEN.

[Richard]

JET - If you were talking about Syria then I'd agree with you because they have a track record of retribution.

However in the context of Bahrain, the events of Feb/March were an exception.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Richard,

This forms part of the Arab Spring. Many North African Muslim countries as well as Arabian Peninsula governments were in the throes of being toppled or experiencing unrest among the general populous.

Egypt and Libya and a couple of others too, had no real history of internal turmoil for many a year until this came to a head.

What we need to realise is that there is no Historical precedent for what is happening/happened.
Arabian culture is changing very fast, and their archaic governmental structures cannot hope to keep up.

What you are seeing in Bahrain is the old guard unwilling to accept change at all costs. Bahrain has experienced intifada in the 90's and as gridwalker rightly pointed out, if you looked at the per Capita death ratio Bahrain has in these skirmishes, its not exaclty rosy....

I digress.

The past is no barometer for what happened in Feb/March.

Retribution will be had for sure, as the detention of many students surgeons and teachers testify...the government wont forget. Its all hypothetical now anyway, as it wont be going ahead.

[PlatinumZealot]

Bahrain have nice people (even the government has a concience) they are not heartless as you make them out to be. See they went and called the race off themselves; they do care:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92107

[myurr]

@JET - your bias in this case is blatant in the use of a per capita death ratio. Is a murderer in a country like China a better person than a murderer in Luxembourg just because China has more people in it? That's an abuse of statistics and ridiculous premise. The death toll in these situations will generally be related to the number and severity of the specific events rather than having any relation to population size. If the police fire into the crowd with automatic weapons at similar sized events in two countries, the results will be the same regardless of the overall population size.

You also seem to overlook the fact that the Bahraini royals are more liberal than the majority of their populace, as evidenced by the policies and clashes between the elected and appointed halves of the government.

Bahrain is no Egypt or Libya. In these uprisings there have been more than ten times the number of deaths in Egypt than in Bahrain, and in Libya the figure is estimated to be ten times greater again (or more).

Did you know that coalition forces have killed two to three times more civilians in Libya than were killed in the Bahraini uprising?

So I repeat, you original statement was ridiculously hyperbolic with no evidence to support it.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@JET - your bias in this case is blatant in the use of a per capita death ratio.

Funny I didnt bring that point up, gridwalker did. Me agreeing with it doesnt make it biased.
The only bias here is your inabilty to accept what you are seeing. 1 death is 1 death, no worse or no better than the other. Per capita is a key indicator in statisitcs, wether it is rape, average earning, average life expectancy or wether you like it or not.

You also seem to overlook the fact that the Bahraini royals are more liberal

You honestly think a liberal goverment would use lethal force to disperse a demo? Repeatedly? I havent overlooked it, I'm just not believing the tripe the government say, rather I prefer to see what they do.

Did you know that coalition forces have killed two to three times more civilians in Libya than were killed in the Bahraini uprising?

Is there going to be a GP in Tripoli?

[myurr]

@JET - your bias in this case is blatant in the use of a per capita death ratio.

Funny I didnt bring that point up, gridwalker did. Me agreeing with it doesnt make it biased.
The only bias here is your inabilty to accept what you are seeing. 1 death is 1 death, no worse or no better than the other. Per capita is a key indicator in statisitcs, wether it is rape, average earning, average life expectancy or wether you like it or not.

But you did use it in your statement to back up and justify your claims. Per capita is a key indicator where the size of the population is relevant. With rape and the others you quote, using a per capita is perfectly justified as the size of the population tends to affect both the number of incidents or total earnings, etc., as well as the number of people affected.

In the protests it's far less relevant. You could maybe look at number of protestors per death or something like that, but a measure against the general population will only ever distort the figures. Therefore to choose to use it is to be biased in wanting to make the Bahraini situation appear as bad as possible.

You also seem to overlook the fact that the Bahraini royals are more liberal

You honestly think a liberal goverment would use lethal force to disperse a demo? Repeatedly? I havent overlooked it, I'm just not believing the tripe the government say, rather I prefer to see what they do.

I didn't say they were liberal, I said they were more liberal. You honestly think that protestors who killed four police offices and injured another 200 were utterly innocent and would protest peacefully?

The government have at least expressed regret and have acknowledged the utterly inappropriate level of force used. Any apologies from protestors for the police they killed?

Did you know that coalition forces have killed two to three times more civilians in Libya than were killed in the Bahraini uprising?

Is there going to be a GP in Tripoli?

[/quote]

No but there's going to be a UK GP and a US GP next year. Do the coalition forces represent Tripoli or their home countries?

[Italiano]

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2617 ... -cancelled
IT'S CANCELLED!!!! Oh the sweet victory!

[Mr Alcatraz]

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2617 ... -cancelled
IT'S CANCELLED!!!! Oh the sweet victory!

=D>

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

But you did use it in your statement to back up and justify your claims

Its a fact mate, I think you ought to put forward a better scientificmeans of measuring rather than questioning per capita data. If there are 1000 citizens and 2 are killed, the effect it would have on the state would be immense, more so than if a bigger country had 2 killed in government demos, hence why the indicator is used.
Using hard data is far more accurate than the airy fairy arguments your putting forward.

I didn't say they were liberal, I said they were more liberal.

More liberal? Please Myurr, thats like calling Dahmer is more moral than Gacy. Bahrain centre for human rights, Medicins Sans Frontieres, Physicians for Human rights all said there is was evidence of the Geneva convention being broken repeatedly. Live arms used in demonstration, Ambulance's being blocked from the injured, literally yards away, with the soldiers threatening lethal force should they tend to the injured.
Blocking of social networks, blocking of Newspapaer publications for days, 28 mosques being destroyed and then....1000 shia workmen conveniently laid off at the Petroleum refinery.

No but there's going to be a UK GP and a US GP next year. Do the coalition forces represent Tripoli or their home countries?

Now you really are chasing your own tail. Ask yourself why the US the UK and the coalition are involved.
Ghaddafi was killing his own people and hiring Sudanese, Ivorian and Nigerian mercenaries to do his killing of his people.
Despite repeated warnings, he continued. His siege of the Misrata and the indiscriminate shelling day and night of his people should really sway you from making the comparison of Libya to that of the US or UK.

My point for this whole thread is Bahrain would have suffered more bloodshed had F1 gone there in October. Cancelling the event was the right thing, as its a guarantee that F1 would not directly or indirectly be responsible for the death of innocent civilians.

There are many ills in this world, F1 neednt be a catalyst for more.

[andrew]

No but there's going to be a UK GP and a US GP next year. Do the coalition forces represent Tripoli or their home countries?

Now you really are chasing your own tail. Ask yourself why the US the UK and the coalition are involved.
Ghaddafi was killing his own people and hiring Sudanese, Ivorian and Nigerian mercenaries to do his killing of his people.
Despite repeated warnings, he continued. His siege of the Misrata and the indiscriminate shelling day and night of his people should really sway you from making the comparison of Libya to that of the US or UK.

Yes you are quite right. UK and US bombs and missiles have the ability to determine between innocent and defenceless civilians and the military. I wonder what Ghaddafi has done to the missiles since the US and UK sold them to him. They have clearly developed some kind of fault!

But I'll play along. Why is the UK involved? OIL! Lots of cheap oil.

The difference between the UK and US and Libya is that the UK and US are self proclaimed world police and disguise their indiscriminate killing behind something as noble as “bringing democracy”, sadly most people fall for this sickening rouse.

I mean who exactly are the UK and US to warn anyone against killing civilians? Can I take it that all the reports of civilians being killed by the UK in Afghanistan and Iraq are works of fiction? Oh wait I get it, they’re hypocrites!

Oh what a wonderful world. Louis Armstrong is reported as achieving 20,000rpm in his grave. The FIA are investigating this as a greener alternative to KERS.

[gridwalker]

Andrew, whilst I don't agree with a lot of what you've said in this thread, I couldn't agree more with that last post. Unfortunately, I do have to differentiate between a UN mandated war (no matter how ill-advised) and lethal crowd control techniques being applied to your own local population.

But, I am going to stop talking about Libya now, as I will otherwise write a rant that would put Ciro to shame.