Mercedes GP W02

[dren]

What point have you made gilgen?

It seems you are more interested in disproving me rather than putting forward your own idea.

Further to this, EBD's aren't nullified. They have been reigned in off throttle. They still work when the throttle is on, which is 70% of the time.

I don't put forward my "ideas", as I am not an engineer, and do not know what would work. But I bow to your superior knowledge.
And of course the EBD will be nullified, as its main benefit is in the corners.

Assuming you are on throttle at the corner apex, there is still benefit. There will also be benefit in corners were the driver is on the throttle the entire time.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I don't put forward my "ideas", as I am not an engineer, and do not know what would work. But I bow to your superior knowledge.
And of course the EBD will be nullified, as its main benefit is in the corners.

My superior knowledge? If it was so superior would I even be posting?
I'm here to learn.

You have now learnt that EBD will indeed still work with the off throttle ban. It just wont work all the time as it is now.

See how this is working?

[marcush.]

again, tyres are the same for everyone.

You can surely differentiate if your problems are more aero than mechanical ,can you?

For whatever reason Mercedes last year was thinking their tyre issues was a weight distribution problem and in consequence Ross Brawn pushed for a intrduction of a fixed distribution -essentially robbing them of a tool to adapt their setup.Makes me wonder how they had the idea this activity would help them?
Could it be there are some heavy misconceptions floating around in the paddock

To me Mercedes is a good example for copying concepts without understanding the full implication will lead to confusion.
Confused people tend to do things more irrational than people who are following a clear track and a mission.
To me Mercedes has adopted the pullrod concept but not the complete RedBull layout and possibly they missed the boat on what Neweys team are really on with their rear suspension layout.

[mep]

Agree that rbr is on high downforce/drag package. But when you say that you can not reduce the angle of attack when you have a flexi wing I think you are wrong.
If you say for example the downforce you need from the front wing is ScZ= 1.3, you can obtain it from an highly cambered rigid wing or from a less cambered flexi wing which would give you 1.2 in rigid shape, but gives 1.3 when flexed.
So you have no problem in finding force to close the gap to the ground.

I agree with you that probably rbr has a wing that goes from 1.35 in rigid attitude to 1.5 in flexi shape, and that could be where half of their estimated 30 points advantage comes from.

What do you mean with ScZ? I guess something like coefficient of lift.

The problem is just you still have to pass the flexi test. So the wing can’t deform more than 20mm when 2000N are applied. The stiffness of the wing is bordered by this and can’t be reduced. Also you gain most when the wing is close to ground as soon as possible. It is just helpful when the car is still cornering. Those 2000N are quite a lot so you need the wing to be high angled to overcome them on medium speeds. With the low angle of attack you will also achieve this but at higher speed when you don’t need it anymore. Even so it’s questionable if there isn’t some trick included in the RedBull wing. I am curious to know what coefficient of lift their wing has. They need much more than those 1.5 you supposed.

[shelly]

ScZ is downforce coefficient times surface.

At 70 m/s speed, ScZ =1.3 means 3800N downforce, and ScZ=1.5 means 4400N downforce. I think this is the ballpark for 2011 f1 front wings.

If we take ScZ=1.2, 2000N is reached at around 50 m/s - 180kph

[aral]

I don't put forward my "ideas", as I am not an engineer, and do not know what would work. But I bow to your superior knowledge.
And of course the EBD will be nullified, as its main benefit is in the corners.

My superior knowledge? If it was so superior would I even be posting?
I'm here to learn.

You have now learnt that EBD will indeed still work with the off throttle ban. It just wont work all the time as it is now.

See how this is working?

[...] Red Bull have said that it is corners where the lack of EBD would have an efect. The top speed on straights, of cars with or without EBDs or throttle mapping, is the same, give or take a KPH or two.
The changes to EBD (which is to be banned in 2012 by specifying exhaust outlet position), will have little or no aero effect on straights.
These are facts, not speculation.
[...]

[Mandrake]

What I found striking in Canada was that MSC did not appear to have any traction issues at all. We've discussed it oftenly here that MSC seems to spin the rear wheels and hits the limiter very often in a dry race......I thought that in a wet race, both the car and the driver would be even worse off. However, MSC appeared to be driving on rails which makes me wonder, what's the problem in dry conditions, if it's really hitting the limiter etc. we can hear?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

What I found striking in Canada was that MSC did not appear to have any traction issues at all. We've discussed it oftenly here that MSC seems to spin the rear wheels and hits the limiter very often in a dry race......I thought that in a wet race, both the car and the driver would be even worse off. However, MSC appeared to be driving on rails which makes me wonder, what's the problem in dry conditions, if it's really hitting the limiter etc. we can hear?

I think it had something to do with the huge rear wing they put on the car. Canada is a speed track for obvious reasons, making the rear wing fitted to the W02 quite remarkable.
I noticed the W02 was awesome under brakes but it wasnt as quick out of the corners as the Red Bull or McLaren(couldnt make the comparsion to Ferrari).

The initial traction was there, but as the speed built it seemed Schumacher couldnt hammer the throttle like Button. Saying that Webber also struggled at certain corners for traction out of them.
But it seemed there was an improvemnent with Schumachers rear, I agree.

[Mandrake]

The rear wing would only start to make a big difference at speeds above 100kph. Below that it's more mechanical than aero grip. I also think that MSC got out of the hairpin pretty well, making the gap large enough to survive a couple of attacks until DRS kicked in. Especially when it was still wet, he was blisteringly fast out of there. And the hairpin speeds are so low that the wing should have no effect at all.

[mep]

Ah I expected something like this. I just wonder where those letters come from?
ScZ? Ts Ts Ts…
Your figures make sense then.
However I still believe that the wing should be close to ground as soon as possible. Let’s say somewhere between 180-250km/h. How much downforce increase can the wing get in ground effect? I expect around 20% can be possible?

[jav]

What I found striking in Canada was that MSC did not appear to have any traction issues at all. We've discussed it oftenly here that MSC seems to spin the rear wheels and hits the limiter very often in a dry race......I thought that in a wet race, both the car and the driver would be even worse off. However, MSC appeared to be driving on rails which makes me wonder, what's the problem in dry conditions, if it's really hitting the limiter etc. we can hear?

Could be they turned down the engine for wet running or perhaps the tires in the dry get too hot and become greasy so corner exit spin results?

The car (Schumi's anyway) did look to be at a different level in the wet versus dry.

[mantikos]

Well. I reckon that you have a lot to learn.

I certainly do! Marcush, X(when he behaves), 747heavy(a great gentleman, read his posts!), Scarbs (if in doubt ask Scarbs ), shelly et al, all fantastic posters I learn a great deal from.

Red Bull have said that it is corners where the lack of EBD would have an efect

How can they say that when EBD's havent been banned in 2011, but off throttle blowing has? You are suggesting "there is a lack of EBD's"? Are they really useless now that off throttle blowing will be banned from silverstone? I think everyone on this page will have a chuckle if you believe that.

I think what G is correctly saying is...under the new 10% on off-throttle rule...most of the EBD downforce will be produced at 100% throttle...aka straights...for the the slower corners since there will be no more than 10% gas flow off-throttle so there will be no benefit by using EBD. For the medium to high speed corners the EBD's effectiveness will be reduced since now you cant cold blow it even though your throttle isn't 100% in the fast corner. EBD will still have some utility in the fast corners, just reduced.
Evil I think you got caught up in the English of the quote above...which by the way is correct

[marcush.]

MS was unable to close the gap to Webber in the last lap .did not see if he had a mistake into the hairpin but it is indicative of the merc not on a par with RedBull in traction or breaking or at least the combination of it in dry conditions.
The tip swíngs certainly in Mercedes favour on intermediates ...but could it be ..the intermediates do simply fit better to the Merc compared to the dry tyres? they could not setup the car for inters having not tested them methinks.
Is there any info around about different construction of intermediate and dry tyre ?

[dren]

Didn't Mercedes set the car up in race trim for wet conditions?

Schumacher was attacking the curbs harder than many of the other cars. I would say his skill level has a lot to do with how well the car performed in the wet.

He was later on the throttle through slow corners in the dry. Probably because the car has less downforce relative to others in those conditions (off throttle EBD may not be as effective) and also due to rear end traction/tire wear.

[dren]

MS was unable to close the gap to Webber in the last lap .did not see if he had a mistake into the hairpin but it is indicative of the merc not on a par with RedBull in traction or breaking or at least the combination of it in dry conditions.
The tip swíngs certainly in Mercedes favour on intermediates ...but could it be ..the intermediates do simply fit better to the Merc compared to the dry tyres? they could not setup the car for inters having not tested them methinks.
Is there any info around about different construction of intermediate and dry tyre ?

Once Webber and Button passed with the DRS they were then able to continue to use the DRS down the next straight to pull an even wider gap. This helped Webber keep his distance from Schumacher. If the cars were not allowed to use the DRS down the following straight after a pass, I believe Schumacher would have had a chance or two to retake the position from Webber.