2011 Endurance news

Please discuss here all your remarks and pose your questions about all racing series, except Formula One. Both technical and other questions about GP2, Touring cars, IRL, LMS, ...
ubrben
ubrben
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Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 22:31

Re: 2011 Endurance news

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Two issues - both touched on already:

1 - For the same peak power a diesel with a broader torque curve will have better acceleration capability for a given finite number of fixed gear ratios, i.e. it's easier to stay close to peak power whilst covering the speed range. If you ran a CVT this would be largely irrelevant because the gear ratios would be adapted to hold the engine at peak power - this is easy to demonstrate in a lap sim programme.

2 - The diesels do have more peak power than the petrol cars. This is a fact of the regulations and is political because the only full factory LMP teams want to use diesels for marketing reasons.

So you could conceivably get a small benefit in lap time (particularly) at Le Mans with a diesel with the same peak horsepower as a petrol if you're stuck with 6 or 7 finite gears. But it won't be 8 seconds a lap - that's horsepower. Le Mans is a massive compromise now - a lap sim might tell you that lowering drag is vital, but if you've got a low downforce car in the Porsche curves, it's hard to go consistently quick for the hours required. If you've got an extra few HP and you can wind the wing on without dropping below the petrol cars straight-line speeds you have a massive advantage.

Ben

DaveW
DaveW
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Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: 2011 Endurance news

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Those, Ben, & the higher calorific value of diesel & (perhaps) better off-throttle efficiency means either more laps for a given fuel uplift, or less fuel uplift for a given number of laps. A performance advantage either way.

All things considered, I don't envy those attempting to formulate performance equivalency rules.

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Lurk
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Fuel tank this year are 65l for diesel and 75 for gasoline. (81 and 90l the past years). So diesel-powered cars can gain a little when the tank is full but this year they are heavier too: 915 vs 900 kg.


IMHO the real problem comes from the engine equivalent itself.
Gasoline engine:
- normally aspirated: 3400cc, 43.3mm restrictor (or 2*30.6)
- supercharged: 2000cc, 42.9mm restictor (or 2*30.3), 2.5bar max pressure.

Diesel supercharged engine: 3700cc, 47.1mm restrictor (or 2*33.5), 3bar max pressure.


I am not an expert so if someone can give me an argument to let diesel engines have a such higher pressure and such wider restrictors, he is welcome...


BTW, the ACO has changed almost everything to build equivalency rules but never really changed the engine equivalency rules.

Muulka
Muulka
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Joined: 13 Mar 2011, 00:04

Re: 2011 Endurance news

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As far as I know, they changed the restrictor sizes between Spa and Le Mans.

And I have to say that i'm slightly surprised the no-one seems to care that Toyota is returning with a full LMP programme (check my last post if you actually are interested).

RacingManiac
RacingManiac
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Joined: 22 Nov 2004, 02:29

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Muulka wrote: And I have to say that i'm slightly surprised the no-one seems to care that Toyota is returning with a full LMP programme (check my last post if you actually are interested).
Supplement the post:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92396

Sounds like a factory team is coming in....certainly will be interesting to see how they choose to tackle this. A properly done petrol car with hybrid drive might be the ticket to take on the diesel...

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machin
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Joined: 25 Nov 2008, 14:45

Re: 2011 Endurance news

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For those interested in GT cars:-
Racecar Engineeing wrote:GT1, GT2, GT3 combined into new ‘World GT’ class
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news ... -gt-class/
COMPETITION CAR ENGINEERING -Home of VIRTUAL STOPWATCH

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Lurk
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Muulka wrote:As far as I know, they changed the restrictor sizes between Spa and Le Mans.
I just found the corresponding bulletin.
They can choose between a wider restrictor and to loose 10kg with a wider restrictor which is smaller than the 1st proposition.

Since I don't know what choice they did, I'll give only the widest restrictor size. The other restricor is 0.2mm smaller.

Lola Toyota and Oak-Pescarolo-Judd: 2*31.1mm (instead 30.6)
Pesca-Judd: 2*30.8mm
Lola Aston Martin: 2*30.7mm
Zytek: 1*43.9mm (instead 42.9)

BTW diesel cars weight 925kg. 915kg is for 908 HDI-FAP (2010 car)

Muulka wrote: And I have to say that i'm slightly surprised the no-one seems to care that Toyota is returning with a full LMP programme (check my last post if you actually are interested).
IMO they will struggle until ACO will stop giving diesel unjustify advantage... Even Porsche didn't want to return because of this advantage (before being bought by VAG, it could be different or for different reasons now...)
Maybe the hybrid thing could change something...

At least, it's cool to see them again. GT-One is a myth even she won't win Le Mans.

wesley123
wesley123
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

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I think they can, if they take it right(which, seeing their previous attempts and F1 is very unlikely) they can bring on the fight. If they throw with serious money and really make a good attempt, they can come up with something well.

The thing the others are just lacking is the money, Peugeot and Audi are throwing in big budgets to win Le Mans, budgets the other teams cannot invest, even ORECA cant, although if they could I doubt peugeot let them win it, with the ongoing partnership. Aston Martin seemingly shot their own foot with the I6 so you can count them out too. The ORECA looked really well, that is quite gone with the partnership, too bad.

Point is, if they make it a real efford they can sure bring the fight to the diesels.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

RacingManiac
RacingManiac
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Joined: 22 Nov 2004, 02:29

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IMO as I've always believed, while diesel in itself has some advantage, you don't get 10 sec a lap alone from that. Audi and Peugeot will still be the top dog if the current rule only allows for gasoline car. They are spending an order of magnitude, or more, on their respective program than other runners. I am sure their hospitality budget for Le Mans alone is more than most teams on the grid at the race for an entire season. Until someone actually went ahead and build a proper petrol car, I don't think we'll ever know for sure. But obviously with the perceived advantage of the diesel, it'll be hard to convince someone to spend that kind of money. At least with Toyota, with their push towards Hybrid in general, they might be able to justify an attempt of the sort....

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Lurk
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Of course the 10s advantage is not only due to the diesel engine. The car itself is better because of the money spent. Even if advantage is "only" 2-3s, it's useless to fight...
It is the same in WRC where Citroen budget is more than $60M...

RacingManiac
RacingManiac
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Joined: 22 Nov 2004, 02:29

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Lurk wrote:Of course the 10s advantage is not only due to the diesel engine. The car itself is better because of the money spent. Even if advantage is "only" 2-3s, it's useless to fight...
It is the same in WRC where Citroen budget is more than $60M...
I think Audi will disagree with you, since they won Le Mans in 2007 and 2008 and 2010 to the Peugeot when they are 2-3 sec slower...

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Lurk
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I should have add "with the same level of reliablility"

Otherwise I'm sure gasoline could match diesel engine but they won't finish the race, or in a bad shape. Like the MG in 2002 who was matching Audi & Bentley cars... (all gasoline but LMP675 vs LMP900)

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747heavy
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Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

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Peugeot rear suspension detail.

Image
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

RacingManiac
RacingManiac
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Joined: 22 Nov 2004, 02:29

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http://www.mulsannescorner.com/RCELeMans2011.html

Scroll down to middle of the page and there are better pics of it without the tarp covering most stuff....interesting arrangement for the rear anti-roll bar...sorta continues the trend of 905->908HDI t->908 with rather unconventional ARB packaging....

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747heavy
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Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

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cheers mate
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci