Red Bull RB7 Renault

[Ferraripilot]

Is the RB rake only a benefit when they are using the off throttle mapping? I think not.

No, but rake is a large reason why the front end makes so much downforce isn't it? Anything upsetting the front-end balance, including changing the rear end no matter to what extent, I believe would require setting changes to the front end. We won't see much of a change at Silverstone as it's a mainly an on-throttle track, but we will later. Perhaps the changes at Valencia will give us an idea of what's to come as this track would be far more indicative to what an off-throttle ban would do to the field

[hardingfv32]

"I believe would require setting changes to the front end"

Why when the 80% of the lap is still perfect?

Could corner exit be viewed as a higher priority that corner entry?

Brian

[Ferraripilot]

"I believe would require setting changes to the front end"

Why when the 80% of the lap is still perfect?

Could corner exit be viewed as a higher priority that corner entry?

Brian

If they lose half a second due to lower entry speeds, I believe they will change their front end setup dependent on the track of course.

[PlatinumZealot]

"Mclaren, Ferrari and RedBull more or less aerodynamically equalised how will the extreme rake of the floor affect RedBull in all aspects"

1) We have no evidence that the RB diffuser seals better than others.

2) We can not decide what flow mechanism the BR exhaust uses to seal the diffuser.

3) Scarbs in a recent interview states his F1 engine source claim that RB does not use an aggressive off throttle mapping when compared to others.

4) The off throttle mapping is only used for 20% of a lap on average. One would expect that aero system is going to be optimized for the other 80% when the off throttle mapping ends.

Brian

1 & 2)I know what mechanism they use. check the "EBD" thread. Already corroborated by Race car engineering. I think it seals better, because it is sealing a bigger space and very effectively at that.

3) Scarbs. hmmm...


4) For every corner entry there is a corner exit, and yes that is where the EBD is really in its element. That is RedBull's biggest strength - corner exit. (evidenced in the dying laps of Barcelona). This will be partially affected by the new ruling. Say if the driver is 50% on throttle the engine will "use" the other 50% of the air to burn after the power stroke. It would now be only 10%. So even though the driver is on the throttle, the Hot blowing can still be used.

It's a matter of how much they loose in the corner entry and how that carries through the exit, where they will lose a bit as well.

[hardingfv32]

"Say if the driver is 50% on throttle the engine will "use" the other 50% of the air to burn after the power stroke."

First, this is not really off throttle mapping. As defined in your statement, the driver is clearly at part throttle.

Regardless, in theory it sounds useful for that small amount of time the driver is accelerating out of a turn at part throttle. I just question whether the engine can accomplish such a task. I would think that the fuel and timing would have to be very odd and create some very bad temperatures and possible combustion issues.

Brian

[Robbobnob]

Newey being the genius that he is, the RedBull will still be quick.
I dont think any assumption based on the COG relative height with other cars can be made. the entire construction of the body and the internal placement of the components will have a much greater effect of COG positioning than the ride height due to rake.

i think what n smikle is strying to say, that even at transient throttle response, the mapping still enables Hot Blowing to occur.

Corner exit, depending on the exit speed of course, the more rear grip the more power you can get down, exit seems like the logical place for the hot blowing to be beneficial, and im sure this has been optimized for

[Robbobnob]

"Finally, with immediate effect, it will no longer be possible to reprogramme the ECU configuration between qualifying and the race in the expectation that this will discourage extreme ECU setups for qualifying - previously electronic access to the ECU under parc ferme conditions had been explicitly permitted.”

regarding the engine maps, wouldn't it be possible to have two engine maps loaded on the ECU at once, and bootloader can load between the two?

or as far as im concerned the dials on the steering wheel directly control the throttle maps, how is the FIA going to restrict use on those?


I feel for every technology banned from the cars, the FIA should compensate them with money spent developing solutions which then become void then creates a development race in another aspect of the car. talk about going green

[DaveKillens]

I don't know if performing this trick while accelerating out of a corner has much effect. To get a decent drive out of the corner, the gearing has to put the engine revs at the sweet spot, lots of torque and RPM's. And from my experience with engines, this is where it's working the hardest and the pressures are at their highest. To add more fuel and create more heat in the cylinder heads and exhausts would really push the engine into dangerous territory, and I believe the gain is marginal at best.

No, I suspect that EBD has it's greatest benefit while under braking, and before reaching the apex. If EBD is used under braking, distances are reduced and the car is more stable, also reducing the risk of flat-spotting. The transition from braking to turn-in is more stable and predictable.

And unless the video and sound synch are out, most of the time I have heard that weird sound was when the car was approaching, or just at the apex of the corner, not after the apex.

[hardingfv32]

"I don't think any assumption based on the COG relative height with other cars can be made. the entire construction of the body and the internal placement of the components will have a much greater effect of COG positioning than the ride height due to rake."

Keeping the CG low is very elementary to the design of all of the cars. I can't believe there is going to be much deference between cars.

In RB's case the driver, fuel load, engine and transmission are clearly higher than other cars.

Brian

[hardingfv32]

"regarding the engine maps, wouldn't it be possible to have two engine maps loaded on the ECU at once, and bootloader can load between the two?

or as far as im concerned the dials on the steering wheel directly control the throttle maps, how is the FIA going to restrict use on those?"

The ECU already holds a number of engine maps. The clarification about uploading new maps is a little perplexing.

The throttle map must mimic a mechanical system of some sort, so this is not the way to accomplish off throttle mapping as we understand it at this time. FIA has access to everyones software so control is not an issue if the rule is written correctly.

Brian

[lillschumi]

I made a little picture to explain my thoughts around CoG/ supension geometry & soft high rake with excessive roll and how it translate forces to the tires.

My thought is with that setup you actually push the tire to the ground creating more "mechanical" grip

I exaggerated put merly to explain, the picture describes 2 scenarios (one stiff low rake, one high rake & soft) of a car from behind in a right-hand corner (orange is engine/gearbox).

[AbbaleRacing77]

Your illustration assumes that the A arm are mounted way above the tire... this doesnt make any sense. Weight is transferred on to the pushrod not the A arms. A stiffer car produces more grip except for when its wet... when its wet you want a softer car because you want the car to ride smooth with the tires always on the ground in order to create a less snappy car.

[PhillipM]

A soft car creates more grip, so long as you can keep the geometery and aero in check

[hardingfv32]

You only need a suspension when you have a rough track. A dead smooth track does not require a suspension or improve the cornering abilities of the car.... Fact!

The weight transfer formula for an F1 car: weight transfer = weight x cg height / wheel track x g

You will notice there is no variable/input for wheel or spring rates, roll rate or sway bar size, etc.

Brian

[PlatinumZealot]

"Say if the driver is 50% on throttle the engine will "use" the other 50% of the air to burn after the power stroke."

First, this is not really off throttle mapping. As defined in your statement, the driver is clearly at part throttle.

Regardless, in theory it sounds useful for that small amount of time the driver is accelerating out of a turn at part throttle. I just question whether the engine can accomplish such a task. I would think that the fuel and timing would have to be very odd and create some very bad temperatures and possible combustion issues.

Brian

In my thinking, It doesn't have to be off throttle to have exhaust overrun. At part throttle you can deliberately operate the engine at a very low combustion efficiency only giving the driver enough power for traction and the rest is exhausted.

For example, the load requires 200 horsepower and is traction limited.
Throttle input for this load at normal spark timing and fuel is 50%.

Instead with exhaust overrun aided by computer:

*The driver inputs 100% throttle.

*The air delivered to the engine is enough to provide 600 horsepower at peak combustion.

*The fuel supplied to the engine is enough to provide the same 600 horsepower.

*The ECU in overrun mode, retards timing so that the combustion efficiency and the Mean effective pressure is greatly reduced. The engine now puts out the required 200 hp. The other 400hp of air and fuel is sent out the exhaust pipe.

So with this method the diffuser is blown even the driver is at part throttle.

That is what I think happens.. it may not be true though.