Driver styles/preferences

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bizadfar
bizadfar
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Joined: 03 Jan 2007, 15:51

Re: Driver styles/preferences

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mariano wrote:Is right this ?

Alonso: early apex, early throotle, in '05/'06 very agressive turn-in due to Renault's more rear weight than its rivals. He can tolerate some understeer, obviusly he is quicker with a neutral car. He increases steering wheel's angle while releasing the brakes.

Schumacher/Vettel/Hamilton: smooth turn-in but agressive middle of the corner (they point the car at the apex). Smooth throotle. They start the turn-in with full brakes. They like a neutral car but they can tolerate some oversteer. Rear weight.

Rosberg/Webber/Button: smooth turn-in and smooth apex. Agressive throotle. They only tolerate a neutral car. Frong weight.

Raikkonen: smooth turn-in, smooth apex and smooth thtootle. He needs the car to rotate for him (oversteer). Rear weight.

Hakkinen/Barrichello: they can brake with the right or the left leg. They brake in a right line (they don´t brake while entrying to the corner). Agressive with the throotle and the steering wheel. 50% front weight and 50% rear wheight. They toletate some oversteer.
Sigh.
Even the most informed get it wrong. Remember everyone during summer '04 said Fisichella would murder Alonso because Alonso's style was too aggressive on tyres? At the end of the day load is load. There is no if or buts about the physics and mathematics involved.

Not only do I disagree with your assesment of different drivers but how can you "guess" the weight. I don't think a modern F1 car has ever been close to "50:50"

Take a visit to youtube man. Barichello has loads of laps locking up approaching an apex.
Raikkonen is a known throttle stamper almost similar Schumi. That's his style, he immediately stamps on considerable throttle [obviously conditions vary] after an ordinary apex. This is perhaps a possible reason as to why he could destroy so many Merc engines over the years :mrgreen:
You also notice that he doesn't slam downshifts/engine braking as much and always making a "late" downchange? I have 0, nada idea about their trans/drivetrain mechanical specification let alone seamless gearboxes but I'd think a late downchange especially under yaw would induce a sudden but ever so slight compression lock from the rears.

As for the reactive and manipulative categories mentioned previously. I'd put a prime Schumi in both. How many times have we heard Brundle call him the dude with a 6th sense of grip?

mariano
mariano
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Joined: 17 Jan 2011, 18:11

Re: Driver styles/preferences

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neither Barrichello nor Schumacher and Raikkonen block their tyres

mariano
mariano
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Can anybody please copy in this forum or scan the article "alonso, portrait of a champion" of Formula 1 Racing magazine n° 79 of september 2005?
Thank you,
mariano

mariano
mariano
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Can anybody please copy in this forum or scan the article "alonso, portrait of a champion" of Formula 1 Racing magazine n° 79 of september 2005?
Thank you,
mariano

mariano
mariano
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Joined: 17 Jan 2011, 18:11

Re: Driver styles/preferences

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What is "secondary steering input" or "secondary steering agression"?

bizadfar
bizadfar
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Joined: 03 Jan 2007, 15:51

Re: Driver styles/preferences

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mariano wrote:neither Barrichello nor Schumacher and Raikkonen block their tyres
Just because they don't lock up doesn't mean they're only braking in a straight line. :lol:

Seriously, braking straight then letting it roll to the apex then accelerating out is an amateur technique and you'd be at the back of the grid... (or not driving at a all...)

I said take a trip to youtube...
It also depends on the TYRES. If you notice a big buzz during 2007 was the former michelin teams/drivers saying how easy it is to lock up the unloaded bridgestone control tyre. TYRES play a huge role in characteristics of drivers and the adaption of their technique.

Barichello Pole lap China 2004:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eBda4u8ko4[/youtube]

Barichello Pole lap Monza 2004:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l_uhy8NEWc[/youtube]

Raikkonen Pole lap Monza 2005: (watch the overlay on the last corner, brakes all the way to the apex and this is an important corner to get exit absolutely perfect and not compromise it:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExhPp_rzxeU[/youtube]


Raikkonen Q1 Qualifying China 2007 (watch the overlay, he DOES trail the brakes):
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvB_C9-y_AU[/youtube]

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Driver styles/preferences

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bizadfar, do you mean roll into the apex with no throttle AND no braking, or do you mean braking straight, then constant speed to apex, then powering out is useless? Sorry to be pedantic, just that I'm not quite understanding what you mean here
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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Interesting insight from Peter D. Windsor on the Webber vs Vettel issue: http://www.theracedriver.com/2011/06/eu ... ng-inputs/
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bizadfar
bizadfar
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999 wrote:bizadfar, do you mean roll into the apex with no throttle AND no braking, or do you mean braking straight, then constant speed to apex, then powering out is useless? Sorry to be pedantic, just that I'm not quite understanding what you mean here
I meant no further input except obviously steering after [straight-line] braking and coasting to the apex or even starting to accel/maintain speed before the apex after braking.
Easiest example is approach an ordinary 90deg corner. Driver that brakes 10meters later but is able to maintain apex speed with a clean exit will always obviously be faster due to the fact he was able to proceed at top speed/100% throttle for 10m before his braking point.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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This piece is a good one on how drivers handle car stability.

http://mccabism.blogspot.com/2009/11/le ... ility.html
In the case of an F1 car, an initial steering input induces an initial slip-angle in the front tyres, which induces an initial direction change (a rotation about the vertical axis, called a yaw motion). If an F1 car is statically stable, the car will then return towards a state of zero yaw. If an F1 car is statically unstable, an initial steering input would not just induce an initial slip-angle and change of direction, but an ever greater change of direction (in the absence of corrective action from the driver), giving the vehicle a tendency to spin on entry to every corner. In particular, if an initial steering input provokes the car into oversteer, then that oversteer will increase the initial direction-change. Hence, the driver must supply opposite-lock steering corrections to reduce the direction-change. Oversteer and instability are therefore related. To be precise, turn-in oversteer is a statically unstable handling characteristic
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Jersey Tom
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Not exactly correct.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Oh? How do you view it should be, JT?
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mariano
mariano
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999 wrote:I'd argue the weight never moves. Maybe a bit by pitch/roll etc, but the load acting on the tyres is the one that changes. From what I gathered in the past year, from all the threads here arguing on weight distribution vs handling, is that the increased weight on a certain axle means you need more grip to laterally accelerate that end. Specifically, from this thread which I started last year: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8951

Let's take this discussion to that thread, and so that this thread can stay on driver-centric input rather than setup-centric input
I read that thread, but I didn´t understand anything. If in a F1 car I put more front static weight, and I am cornering without brakes or throotle, will it undesteer, or overteer?

And if I trail brake or unwind (while acelerating)? Will I have to turn more or less (add or remove steering wheel)?

Thank you in advance,
mariano

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Where's Ciro when we need him to answer this? :P
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timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Driver styles/preferences

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mariano wrote:If in a F1 car I put more front static weight, and I am cornering without brakes or throotle, will it undesteer, or overteer?

And if I trail brake or unwind (while acelerating)? Will I have to turn more or less (add or remove steering wheel)?

Thank you in advance,
mariano
On a long curve the car would tend to slide more with the side that has more mass on it. However, on the initial turn in the responce might be quicker on the heavier side.