Red Bull RB7 Renault

[Ferraripilot]

Has anyone noticed RB7 running less rake than before? It's difficult to tell at this point but from the pictures I have seen that certainly appears to be the case

I thought so too but hadn't said anything as it's really hard to tell with any certainty, doubly so with the wet running we've had so far. However if the most recent reports about Red Bull being able to run at 50% throttle instead of 10% for the others are true then they'll probably be able to crank the rake back on.

I thought that was only for team Lotus/Renault?

[ajdavison2]

Why would they be able to?

[PlatinumZealot]

I stand by FormulaOne on this one.

However, I am certain (having work extensively with CF and composites myself), that the "dimples" we see on the pic's are only there since they use pre-pregged CF. This is CF that is pre-impregnated with Expoy resin by the manufacturer. It is harder to manipulate and must be heat-treated in an oven in order to achieve maximum bonding and strength when compared to manual impregnation. The benefit of using pre-preg is that you do not have a single-drop of expoxy resin too much and all fibres are equally impregnated (something that is very hard to do manually). As well, using pre-preg, reduces the time required for the manufacturing process since you do not need to use peelply to remove excessive epoxy resin during the hardening process.

Lovely! Well said! This is what I was saying ten pages ago, but nobody seemed to notice.

[myurr]

Has anyone noticed RB7 running less rake than before? It's difficult to tell at this point but from the pictures I have seen that certainly appears to be the case

I thought so too but hadn't said anything as it's really hard to tell with any certainty, doubly so with the wet running we've had so far. However if the most recent reports about Red Bull being able to run at 50% throttle instead of 10% for the others are true then they'll probably be able to crank the rake back on.

I thought that was only for team Lotus/Renault?

It would appear not. The latest reports suggest that Red Bull / Renault can use 50% throttle; Mercedes based teams can use 10% throttle but can hot blow the exhausts; Ferrari and Cosworth will cold blow with 10% throttle.

So with other rumours suggesting Red Bull previously only used 45% throttle it would suggest that they'll be utterly unaffected and will be cranking on the rake again tomorrow.

[BreezyRacer]

It would appear not. The latest reports suggest that Red Bull / Renault can use 50% throttle; Mercedes based teams can use 10% throttle but can hot blow the exhausts; Ferrari and Cosworth will cold blow with 10% throttle.

So with other rumours suggesting Red Bull previously only used 45% throttle it would suggest that they'll be utterly unaffected and will be cranking on the rake again tomorrow.

Apparently there is a big difference between cold blowing and hot blowing exhausts. The Renault motors have been using cold blowing to cool exhaust valves while Mercedes claimed they had to have 20 degree hot blowing exhaust so they are allowed to fire every other cylinder. I think only Cosworth is running to the 10 degree spec. I'm not sure what Ferrari are doing.

This is a bit of a mess for the FIA. All of this should have been figured out way before now but the FIA didn't get FOTA together for this rule change and have meetings on issues like these.

[Ferraripilot]

Corect me if I am wrong, but I thought the Renault engines were only allowed 50% throttle opening with 'cold blowing' meaning it's not generating the same 'hot blowing' thrust as before. Horner also stated that he believes the MB engines now have the advantage as they are allowed to hot blow 4 cylinders which creates thrust and is more effective than Renault's cold blowing. Of course Whitmarsh is at odds with Horner on this one regarding who has the advantage, but clearly the Fia had to tread lightly regarding what they allowed each engine manufacturer and team to proceed with.

[gerishnikov]

I stand by FormulaOne on this one.

However, I am certain (having work extensively with CF and composites myself), that the "dimples" we see on the pic's are only there since they use pre-pregged CF. This is CF that is pre-impregnated with Expoy resin by the manufacturer. It is harder to manipulate and must be heat-treated in an oven in order to achieve maximum bonding and strength when compared to manual impregnation. The benefit of using pre-preg is that you do not have a single-drop of expoxy resin too much and all fibres are equally impregnated (something that is very hard to do manually). As well, using pre-preg, reduces the time required for the manufacturing process since you do not need to use peelply to remove excessive epoxy resin during the hardening process.

Lovely! Well said! This is what I was saying ten pages ago, but nobody seemed to
notice.

sorry i have been registered on here quite a while and this fourm never ceases to amaze me, I work for a top flight f1 team as a laminator and it has nothing to do with it being prepreg, the engine cover on all the cars will leterally be 1 or 2 plys of the thin chequerboard material with rein plys round the edges using regular 2x2T or 5H material the marks you are seeing is nothing but the impression of the nomex core, you only get this effect on bodywork (ie not chassis, wings, endplates etc etc)as other areas are either very dense with carbon before the core stage or they use rohacell core (used a lot more than you could imagine)

i will now await the flaming

[shelly]

Agree with gerishnikov 100%. It is the nomex honeycomb pattern. When you apply pressure in the autoclave the plies adjacent to the hollow parts of the honeycomb get curved and form those dimples

[BreezyRacer]

sorry i have been registered on here quite a while and this fourm never ceases to amaze me, I work for a top flight f1 team as a laminator and it has nothing to do with it being prepreg, the engine cover on all the cars will leterally be 1 or 2 plys of the thin chequerboard material with rein plys round the edges using regular 2x2T or 5H material the marks you are seeing is nothing but the impression of the nomex core, you only get this effect on bodywork (ie not chassis, wings, endplates etc etc)as other areas are either very dense with carbon before the core stage or they use rohacell core (used a lot more than you could imagine)

i will now await the flaming

Sorry but I have to ask .. where do you use Rohacell? Do you shape it for wings and endplates? Also how many of the parts are one time fabricated vs using a mould process? No flaming here ..

[PlatinumZealot]

I stand by FormulaOne on this one.

However, I am certain (having work extensively with CF and composites myself), that the "dimples" we see on the pic's are only there since they use pre-pregged CF. This is CF that is pre-impregnated with Expoy resin by the manufacturer. It is harder to manipulate and must be heat-treated in an oven in order to achieve maximum bonding and strength when compared to manual impregnation. The benefit of using pre-preg is that you do not have a single-drop of expoxy resin too much and all fibres are equally impregnated (something that is very hard to do manually). As well, using pre-preg, reduces the time required for the manufacturing process since you do not need to use peelply to remove excessive epoxy resin during the hardening process.

Lovely! Well said! This is what I was saying ten pages ago, but nobody seemed to
notice.

sorry i have been registered on here quite a while and this fourm never ceases to amaze me, I work for a top flight f1 team as a laminator and it has nothing to do with it being prepreg, the engine cover on all the cars will leterally be 1 or 2 plys of the thin chequerboard material with rein plys round the edges using regular 2x2T or 5H material the marks you are seeing is nothing but the impression of the nomex core, you only get this effect on bodywork (ie not chassis, wings, endplates etc etc)as other areas are either very dense with carbon before the core stage or they use rohacell core (used a lot more than you could imagine)

i will now await the flaming

Hey, do your thing... I know diddly squat about laying carbon fibre. I only have seen those bumpiness on other carbon bodied cars. All I was praising him for was the fact that the bumps were not intentionally put there for aero reasons.

It's better to discuss the process with kamikaze.

[Formula None]

I stand by FormulaOne on this one.

However, I am certain (having work extensively with CF and composites myself), that the "dimples" we see on the pic's are only there since they use pre-pregged CF. This is CF that is pre-impregnated with Expoy resin by the manufacturer. It is harder to manipulate and must be heat-treated in an oven in order to achieve maximum bonding and strength when compared to manual impregnation. The benefit of using pre-preg is that you do not have a single-drop of expoxy resin too much and all fibres are equally impregnated (something that is very hard to do manually). As well, using pre-preg, reduces the time required for the manufacturing process since you do not need to use peelply to remove excessive epoxy resin during the hardening process.

Lovely! Well said! This is what I was saying ten pages ago, but nobody seemed to
notice.

sorry i have been registered on here quite a while and this fourm never ceases to amaze me, I work for a top flight f1 team as a laminator and it has nothing to do with it being prepreg, the engine cover on all the cars will leterally be 1 or 2 plys of the thin chequerboard material with rein plys round the edges using regular 2x2T or 5H material the marks you are seeing is nothing but the impression of the nomex core, you only get this effect on bodywork (ie not chassis, wings, endplates etc etc)as other areas are either very dense with carbon before the core stage or they use rohacell core (used a lot more than you could imagine)

i will now await the flaming

Informative, thank you. How are transitions made between changes of wall thickness in the same part? Is the core itself shaped, or is there some filler material in between the junction of the core edges and outer layers of CF?

Looks like some varieties are pretty flexible but I assume it has some bending limitations. Are there multiple sections of nomex core pieced together within the shell, or is one sheet used, with cuts made to relieve wrinkling? Forgive my lack of proper nomenclature. Is the layout of the core, how it will bend, how you piece it together, etc, designed in from the start, or is this detail dealt with by the technicians laying up the part, dealing with it as they go?

[marcush.]

the Honeycomb cores can be ordered in a stretched condition wich allows more shaping if I´m correct.

[Dipl-Ing.]

Hi guys, I know I don't post alot, but I was wondering if there were any questions anybody would like to ask Paul Managhan about the RB7 or Formula1 in general?
He's coming to uni on Wednesday and there is no way I will miss that. So if there's anything anybody can think of I will ask.
And I already asked if I could record it, but they didn't seem to happy.

[Formula None]

You can see flow is detached on the beam wing near crash structure corners, & attached inboard of the slotted section.

[BreezyRacer]

You can see flow is detached on the beam wing near crash structure corners, & attached inboard of the slotted section.

I would be more inclined to think it's just runoff thru the slot from flow vis on the upper surface of the beam wing.