McLaren MP4-12C

[Pup]

Judging from what was said on the link posted a few pages back, the 458 in the Car shootout wasn't stock - it used "user-upgradable parts", making it both lighter and faster. Maybe true, maybe not, but it's enough to make me question whether that test was fair to the Mac. Not that I have any more faith in the Top Gear test necessarily. I don't trust either.

I'll wait for Nurburgring numbers.

But all of that aside, I don't think anyone will buy a Ferrari vs a McLaren based on a few seconds here or there. The two cars speak to two different types of people. Like we discussed earlier, it's more likely the Porsche crowd who will be eyeing the Mac.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

. The two cars speak to two different types of people. Like we discussed earlier, it's more likely the Porsche crowd who will be eyeing the Mac.

The Porsche can still blitz its rear tyres should the(well off) owner choose too.
I like the MP4-12C I really do, but the constant interference of the electronics would certainly make me baulk at buying one over a 458 if I ever got into the (fortunate) position to make the choice.

Bottom line I want to love it but I cant just yet....

[xpensive]

I'd like to think of the MP4-12C as the engineer's preference and the 458 as the poseur's, but that's me of course.

[Pup]

The Porsche can still blitz its rear tyres should the(well off) owner choose too.
I like the MP4-12C I really do, but the constant interference of the electronics would certainly make me baulk at buying one over a 458 if I ever got into the (fortunate) position to make the choice.

Bottom line I want to love it but I cant just yet....

From McLaren...

...it was implied in the video that the traction control cannot be disengaged, for the record this is not the case.

[TheRMVR]

I'd like to think of the MP4-12C as the engineer's preference and the 458 as the poseur's, but that's me of course.

Thats selling the 458 short. It really does. People underestimate the technology in that car. I think any inside will tell you that Ferrari is absolute king when it comes to electronic systems. You can see that in the 458. Although the TC might not be as quick as the McLarens, they have 4 other settings that let you play around and still look like a great driver. Thats were the secret of the 458 is. It is so easy and 'fun' to drive without being too easy. From a technical point of view, that is very difficult. So difficult in fact McLaren haven't pulled it off yet.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Fair point pup.

But will that change the cars nature to the point were it breaks traction? Or will it still need to be driven "a certain way" to extract it's potential?
X says one is an engineers wet dream, and the other a poser's.

I say they are both poser's cars, with the ability to make engineers moist. I've not driven them so I cannot say 100% which is better for me. But going on reviewers feedback, the Ferrari appears to be more dramatic, and makes the driver feel more involved. Again these aren't my words but those of reviewers.
There is a tiny discernible difference, but I accept the McLaren is better in certain environments.

[nacho]

99% supercars will probably never be driven on a track and if they are the drivers will certainly drive them like Tiff or Clarkson. They will mostly be driven on very good tarmac and at normal speeds with occasional harder acceleration taking place at straight lines. In that sense the ultimate lap time around Nurburgring or amount of fun at the edge of grip is not really that important. But of course for the image of the car... you wanna have the fastest supercar.

[xpensive]

...
X says one is an engineers wet dream, and the other a poser's.

I say they are both poser's cars, with the ability to make engineers moist. I've not driven them so I cannot say 100% which is better for me. But going on reviewers feedback, the Ferrari appears to be more dramatic, and makes the driver feel more involved. Again these aren't my words but those of reviewers.
There is a tiny discernible difference, but I accept the McLaren is better in certain environments.

In the context JET, it should be remembered that I'm strictly a mechanical engineer, why I don't give a hoot about the electronic gizmos. But that 80 kg CF tub, lovely aluminium suspension components and that hydraulic ARB gives me a hard on...

[Pup]

Fair point pup.

But will that change the cars nature to the point were it breaks traction? Or will it still need to be driven "a certain way" to extract it's potential?

Well, I guess we don't know. I think the only things we can say is that A, the people who tested the car are too stupid to figure out the car's traction control system, thereby negating pretty much everything they said about it; and B, the people who made the car are too wonky to know that they have to explain things clearly to test drivers and magazine editors (and probably customers), preferably using only small words and simple diagrams, which is at least proof positive that the car is a McLaren.

Or C, someone at Car likes Ferrari, and vice versa.

I haven't seen the Top Gear, but I can imagine that they were heavily torn between national pride and their general fondness of driving cars around their track mostly sideways.

[munudeges]

While the Ferrari was from a private owner.

There is absolutely no way in hell that any Ferrari tested is from a private owner. Ferrari simply don't allow it and the red wrath comes down on you from on high if you try.

[Just_a_fan]

Well the Top Gear review wasn't really fair to the Ferrari now was it? First of all the McLaren has been tested there for months. Secondly it was on semi-slick tires from what I've heard, not the original ones the customers get. And lastly the time in the McLaren has been done by the 'new' Stig.

So those 3 seconds are very easily explaned. In the CAR test the McLaren was quite a bit slower dispite being set-up by 3 McLaren mechanics for the track. While the Ferrari was from a private owner.

The Corsa tyres are available to buy by any owner. Indeed, an option available is a set of regular tyres, a set of Corsa tyres and a set of winter tyres. So you can use your new car anywhere and any time you like. Perhaps Sir would like to look at McLaren's website and spec up a car before commenting further...

"new Stig" is worth 3 seconds a lap? Wow, I'm surprised he hasn't been snapped up by an F1 team. Even Alonso is only worth 0.6s...

And for the Car test, the Ferrari was never an owner car. Never happen. Ferrari don't allow it. In a recent Evo test, the magazine wanted both a 458 and 599GTO. Ferrari claimed no GTO was available. Evo offered to source a customer car and Ferrari said they would pull the 458 if they did so. Ferrari don't allow tests using owner cars...

[Just_a_fan]

I haven't seen the Top Gear, but I can imagine that they were heavily torn between national pride and their general fondness of driving cars around their track mostly sideways.

Clarkson loved lots of things about the -12C but preferred the 458 because it had "zing". He didn't like the efficiency of the -12C. Too "form follows function" as far as I could tell.

The timed lap was stunning. The car was just planted everywhere and looked so sorted it was scary.

Interestingly, when they were doing the car shots of the -12C and the 458 together, the McLaren was doing quite a lot of drifting and powersliding. Something that the magazines said couldn't be done and therefore the car was rubbish. Also Clarkson explained how the TC could be turned off - something the magazines kept saying was impossible.

Makes you wonder how worthwhile the magazne reviews really were if they get such simple stuff wrong...

[munudeges]

The Top Gear track time is why I have no faith in any of these so called fastest times. Do I believe the 12C is the more advanced, better handling and faster cornering car owing to its engineering construction? Yes. Does that make it three seconds faster than the 458 on a short twisty track? I doubt it to be honest.

[Pierce89]

While the Ferrari was from a private owner.

There is absolutely no way in hell that any Ferrari tested is from a private owner. Ferrari simply don't allow it and the red wrath comes down on you from on high if you try.

Many Ferrari owners lend their cars to magazines on condition of anonymity. For the first months that was the only source of any Enzo tests.

[Pierce89]

I'd like to think of the MP4-12C as the engineer's preference and the 458 as the poseur's, but that's me of course.

I'm an engineer and I much prefer the 458(Alonso fan too, what a coincidence). The fact that the Ferrari is constructed by more artisan means than the Mclaren's sterile, bland, robot like employees, might bother some, but I love something built with emotion.