British GP 2011 - Silverstone

[KPGS]

Hi, I'm new here!

I already posted a similar question on rasf1, but here it goes:

After looking at the timing sheets, it's clear that a driver entering
the pits was quicker crossing the line than another one going through
the last 2 corners.
If that is so, why for example didn't Webber and Massa dive into the
pits on the last lap (to overtake Vettel/Hamilton)??? Would they have
been penalized? But on what grounds?

Cheers,
MB

Didnt see that.
Is that for shure? I meen, pit entry line is not finish line so driver must drive xx meters with speed limiter on. Interesting if your data is correct.

IMHO no rule forbids such thing. What MS did years ago was plain loophole exploiting, now rules are different regarding serving stop and go / drive trough penalty.

[raymondu999]

Actually IIRC Schumi had a stop & go that he hadn't served. He finished the last lap, then stopped for 10 seconds at the finish line

[miguelbento]

Hi, I'm new here!

I already posted a similar question on rasf1, but here it goes:

After looking at the timing sheets, it's clear that a driver entering
the pits was quicker crossing the line than another one going through
the last 2 corners.
If that is so, why for example didn't Webber and Massa dive into the
pits on the last lap (to overtake Vettel/Hamilton)??? Would they have
been penalized? But on what grounds?

Cheers,
MB

Didnt see that.
Is that for shure? I meen, pit entry line is not finish line so driver must drive xx meters with speed limiter on. Interesting if your data is correct.

IMHO no rule forbids such thing. What MS did years ago was plain loophole exploiting, now rules are different regarding serving stop and go / drive trough penalty.

Yes, for example, take a look at the lap times of Hamilton just before his second stop:

Lap 21 - 99.210
Lap 22 - 99.222
Lap 23 - 99.580
Lap 24 - 96.235 (in lap)
Lap 25 - 116.700 (out lap)

His in-lap was more than 3 seconds faster than the previous laps. And this
occurred for all other drivers:

For example, Alonso:
Lap 24 - 98.456
Lap 25 - 98.450
Lap 26 - 97.541
Lap 27 - 95.551 (in lap)
Lap 28 - 116.602 (out lap)

I'm puzzled, because I can't find anything in the regulations that forbids a
driver finishing a race in the pit lane. No one in any team thought about
finishing the race diving into the pits to overtake? I believe they did, but
somehow Charlie "convinced" them that it was illegal.

Cheers,
MB

[tok-tokkie]

^^^
This is a very interesting point. On Monday I posted this in this thread:

The 10 sec stop & go penalty on Schumacher was way excessive. Because a normal drive through is no penalty at all on the revised Silverstone Whiting has made a local rule that drive throughs wont be imposed & stop & goes will be. He should adjust the local rule to a 2 sec stop & go in place of a drive through & the normal 10 sec stop & go should become 12 or 15 secs so they both have similar effect to what happens at other tracks.

They are going to have to make local rules for this track. Otherwise what rule is there to prevent a driver simply trundling through the pits every lap. He is looking for the quickest way round the track & that would be the best strategy.

[spacer]

They did, Charlie Whiting announced before the GP that drivers abusing the fast pit entry (last lap, Q3, etc.) would be penalized.

[miguelbento]

^^^
This is a very interesting point. On Monday I posted this in this thread:

The 10 sec stop & go penalty on Schumacher was way excessive. Because a normal drive through is no penalty at all on the revised Silverstone Whiting has made a local rule that drive throughs wont be imposed & stop & goes will be. He should adjust the local rule to a 2 sec stop & go in place of a drive through & the normal 10 sec stop & go should become 12 or 15 secs so they both have similar effect to what happens at other tracks.

They are going to have to make local rules for this track. Otherwise what rule is there to prevent a driver simply trundling through the pits every lap. He is looking for the quickest way round the track & that would be the best strategy.

Note that a complete lap through the pits is still slower than a "normal" lap, due to the 100kmh limit.
What is quicker is if a driver dives into the pits, he will cross the finish line before another car that goes around the final 2 corners.

Now I'm realizing also that, during qualifying, if a driver finished his hot lap in the pits he would be quicker by 2 or 3 seconds!

The solution to this is simple: move the speed limit start line a couple hundred meters before, and that's it.

Cheers,
MB

[miguelbento]

They did, Charlie Whiting announced before the GP that drivers abusing the fast pit entry (last lap, Q3, etc.) would be penalized.

That's also what I heard, but what is the regulation that forbids doing that?

Cheers,
MB

[Gerhard Berger]

There is a difference between Ferrari last year and RB this year. Last year Ferrari told a driver who was ahead on merit to slow down to let his team mate catch up and then pass. That's different to telling your drivers to not do anything silly.Anyway, Vettel now knows that Webber can match him for pace. That'll make things interesting

Horner didn't tell Webber not to do anything silly.

For me, Ferrari's team orders were more understandable given the championship siutation. Alonso badly needed the points to catch up with others whilst Massa was out of contention realistically, if not mathematically. Here, we have Vettel a huge lead in the championship. If anyone else is going to challenge him, it's his team mate, but again realistically, Vettel will probably seal the title with a few races to spare. He doesn't need the extra 3 points. Webber probably needed them more if he wanted 2nd place.

[vall]

There is a difference between Ferrari last year and RB this year. Last year Ferrari told a driver who was ahead on merit to slow down to let his team mate catch up and then pass. That's different to telling your drivers to not do anything silly.Anyway, Vettel now knows that Webber can match him for pace. That'll make things interesting

As I remember it Alonso was on the tail of Massa attempting to overtake! He did not need Massa to slow down to catch him.....

I missed the race I was travelling and I just realized I am going to miss Germany for the same reason. Damn it.....

[vall]

The Facts according to you:

Fact 1: Webber is not German

Fact 2: Vettel is German

Fact 3: Vettel can do no wrong due to fact 2

Fact 4: Webber is always in the wrong due to fact 1

Those are not the facts according to me. You are making up this BS and everybody here can see its not by me.

Those are the facts as I see them:

Fact3: Webber is 80 points behind Vettel by his own making and three points less make no substantial difference justifying the risk of another crash. He is extremely unlikely to win the 2011 championship according to the vast majority of the fans and pundits

you twist the facts. It is only 3 point compared to the rest of the field. Compared to Vettel, which is what matters for Webber, it is good 6 points. Now the difference is 80 point. If Webber finished 2nd it would have been 74 points between the two.

[beelsebob]

Excellent drive or just luck he didn't crash this time? What is the science behind these judgments?

A good setup for the conditions? Luck again? How did the team know what the conditions would be?

Given the number of successful passes he's made this season (hell, after spain he'd made more successful passes than all the other drivers on the grid put together) and the number of accidents that he's had that have been his fault (1), I'll go with not-luck (not bad luck).

That said – this thread is meant to be about technical aspects of the MP4-26, maybe we should move elsewhere if you want to have that discussion (again).

[Just_a_fan]

Agreed excellent driving alongside a lower mass a result of under-fuelling. Each kilo of fuel worth in the region of 0.3s/lap, they say!

sAx

I think that's 10kg of fuel = 0.3s not 1kg of fuel = 0.3s.

[beelsebob]

Agreed excellent driving alongside a lower mass a result of under-fuelling. Each kilo of fuel worth in the region of 0.3s/lap, they say!

sAx

I think that's 10kg of fuel = 0.3s not 1kg of fuel = 0.3s.

Excellent, that sorts out my query on the other McLaren fueling thread – thanks.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

+1 to Gerhard and Vall


Why does Vettel need the extra 5 points being 80 odd points in the lead? There is no reasonable explanation.
Do Red Bull want to not only take away an on track spectacle, but also tie up the championship in record time to make the rest of the races meaningless?

Because thats why Red Bull invested in the team?

[Just_a_fan]

Could it be if Hamilton started with the proper fuel load he would not have advanced through the field as well?

Brian

I think that the plan seemed to me that they under fueled Hamilton so he could easily have more pace than those around him at the beginning but weren't planning on doing much fighting later. Salvaging a P10 grid slot to 4th overall that was there plan.

I cant remember when he changed tires, but if you compare that with the others should give us some hint to the pace he was running

They underfuelled him because they expected him to spend more time bottled up behind slower cars because of his grid position. The conditions in the opening laps meant that Hamilton was able to pass more people than expected and thus was able to be more agressive much earlier on than expected. Thus the fuel calculation went wrong. Button stated that he saved more fuel than Hamilton by virtue of simply being slower than him in the earlier stages. His own pace improved with the conditions and he would have looked good to challenge Hamilton had the nut been put on...

If the race had been completely dry from the start then the fuel calculation would have been more likely to succeed as planned. The conditions played in to Hamilton's hands by helping to nullify the difference between the McLaren and the Red Bull / Ferrari. The conditions also hampered some of those ahead of him e.g. di Resta and Maldonado who have less experience in wet F1 racing. Also Massa and Rosberg seemed to struggle a bit too. Hamilton's total belief in his ability coupled with that ability meant he could make moves that others would only think about e.g. Alonso in to Copse on slicks whilst partially on the wet line.