Mercedes GP W02

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

On topic before we become derailed again,


What other additions can mercedes add to the exhaust? It looked quite well executed to be fair, although the diffuser retained the White of the zircotec material.
This is an area that is dead for 2012, so i doubt mercedes will look too deeply here.
This double pivoted suspension is provoking some thought in the office.... Are there any pictures any one can illustrate for my small brain??

Thanks in advance

[dren]

As for added performance to come from the exhaust...I'm guessing maybe a better cover like what Red Bull has, maybe there is some benefit with the beam wing? Maybe the rake angle can change (which will worsen the already bad CoG of the W02). Perhaps they can package the internals better now that there is more room and less heat where the exhaust used to be? I don't know...any other ideas?

As for the linked suspension, I have just read of it, so I don't know if it truly exists. I guess most teams couple the front and rear to reduce pitching, just not to the extent Mercedes does.

I am starting to believe they are running such a system. They were the only top team in early season testing to run such a basic car for the means of sorting out reliability issues. Probably for the double radiators, KERS, and the suspension system. Remember Rosberg said early on the initial performance steps came from suspension set-ups.

[jav]

I'm a little confused by this exhaust pursuit and the resulting development comments. My understanding was that the con-di nozzle was beneficial at maximizing the effect of hot gases (I presumed both aerodynamically and perhaps with some scavenging benefits as well). But don't the proposed exhaust regulations for 2012 expect to define an earodynamically neutral point, behind the car, for the exhaust exit?

Seems to me this development path, regardless of promise, will only have an impact on this season and then only in deciding the midfield rank. Wouldn't it be wiser to continue development of W02 with a clear vision towards the evolution of W03?

[marcush.]

One would think that all teams at least came up with the the major concepts and made an evaluation of forward midship ,cannon style and difusser hole blowing.
...

Come now marcush, you can't ask for too much with only a 400 staff...

hehe..I would have some very inconvenient questions rolling for quite a while if i were Ross or Bob or anyone senior in the Mercedes camp.
It´s just bizarre to stick with the wrong layout for half a season when you can change with minor effort.They could do it now ,Mclaren could do it from race 1 after experiencing a horror winter ....but you are right ..with 400 headcount it´s almost impossible -imagine a whole pair of exhaust tailpipes 4 atachment points to the floor and some differnet heatprotective coating .No.Impossible.

Considering the few information we get as armchair enthusiasts ,my impression is
that there are very few people in that team who actually have a pair of seizable balls in their trousers .And take decisions when it´s needed.
Whole s..t they made such a big fuzz about their final configuration car onbly to conclude after half a season it´s a bunch of crap and starting afresh doing a copy of what they found in the bin at Mercedes engines from what MCL and Force india have done ages ago..It does not take THAT long to evaluate the merits of both systems does it? but of course when all your 400 specialists are occupied with more important evaluations...sometimes you need to decide and bring forward
urgent developmeents even thogh you have other work in progress ...-you need to decide what is giving you more benefit.Now they found the limit of their midship exhaust as claimed by Brawn..and it seems the first itaration of the RBR stile is better than this.. so thats 7 or 8 races for the bin.

[mantikos]

I'm a little confused by this exhaust pursuit and the resulting development comments. My understanding was that the con-di nozzle was beneficial at maximizing the effect of hot gases (I presumed both aerodynamically and perhaps with some scavenging benefits as well). But don't the proposed exhaust regulations for 2012 expect to define an earodynamically neutral point, behind the car, for the exhaust exit?

Seems to me this development path, regardless of promise, will only have an impact on this season and then only in deciding the midfield rank. Wouldn't it be wiser to continue development of W02 with a clear vision towards the evolution of W03?

If nothing else the con-di nozzle can be carried over to 2012...since the regs only stipulate that the outlet be oval...the area of the exhaust pipe preceeding the outlet can be convergent-divergent

[mantikos]

One would think that all teams at least came up with the the major concepts and made an evaluation of forward midship ,cannon style and difusser hole blowing.
...

Come now marcush, you can't ask for too much with only a 400 staff...

hehe..I would have some very inconvenient questions rolling for quite a while if i were Ross or Bob or anyone senior in the Mercedes camp.
It´s just bizarre to stick with the wrong layout for half a season when you can change with minor effort.They could do it now ,Mclaren could do it from race 1 after experiencing a horror winter ....but you are right ..with 400 headcount it´s almost impossible -imagine a whole pair of exhaust tailpipes 4 atachment points to the floor and some differnet heatprotective coating .No.Impossible.

Considering the few information we get as armchair enthusiasts ,my impression is
that there are very few people in that team who actually have a pair of seizable balls in their trousers .And take decisions when it´s needed.
Whole s..t they made such a big fuzz about their final configuration car onbly to conclude after half a season it´s a bunch of crap and starting afresh doing a copy of what they found in the bin at Mercedes engines from what MCL and Force india have done ages ago..It does not take THAT long to evaluate the merits of both systems does it? but of course when all your 400 specialists are occupied with more important evaluations...sometimes you need to decide and bring forward
urgent developmeents even thogh you have other work in progress ...-you need to decide what is giving you more benefit.Now they found the limit of their midship exhaust as claimed by Brawn..and it seems the first itaration of the RBR stile is better than this.. so thats 7 or 8 races for the bin.

You are not acocunting for the new cover, new internal layout, new exhaust pipes, new materials and coatings, new floor and new diffuser that went with the new package not to mention the unique con-di nozzle and I am sure the tight packed short wheelbase made it harder to impliment than FI or Mac

[xpensive]

The funny thing marcush is that some of us armchair-xperts actually did comment, on this very thread as a matter of fact,
on the rudimentary looking xhaust already at the first tests in January! If you don't recall you can scroll back?

Six months later the 400 specialists are on to it, is this for real?

[jav]

I'm a little confused by this exhaust pursuit and the resulting development comments. My understanding was that the con-di nozzle was beneficial at maximizing the effect of hot gases (I presumed both aerodynamically and perhaps with some scavenging benefits as well). But don't the proposed exhaust regulations for 2012 expect to define an earodynamically neutral point, behind the car, for the exhaust exit?

Seems to me this development path, regardless of promise, will only have an impact on this season and then only in deciding the midfield rank. Wouldn't it be wiser to continue development of W02 with a clear vision towards the evolution of W03?

If nothing else the con-di nozzle can be carried over to 2012...since the regs only stipulate that the outlet be oval...the area of the exhaust pipe preceeding the outlet can be convergent-divergent

Why carry over the nozzle to 2012 if it's main benefit was to work in conjuction with the EBD? Seems to me if you place the nozzle aft of any bodywork, it's benefit would be muteand perhaps even inferior to some other solutions? Doesn't pursuing it's development this season carry little benefit forward?

[marcush.]

x .I have to admit you were spot on with it back then and all that half baked effort they show since the very first tests in the winter it seems they really cannot commit to something and the end result shows...it looks amateurish and certainly not like the finished product .
Brawn himself has admitted they lacked a true technical director..and maybe the arrival of Bob Bell in april stopped all activity with their UNIQUE midship exhaust and put all effort behind the more promising canon style ...and it puts the departure of Bob Bell from Renault into a new light as well as I bet he knew about the fancy forward layout and told the guys they were on for a ride with that one and he said thank you not for me?

I was of course exagerating with the amount of work needed .. but think again what 400 headcount working just 22days per month 8 hours a day amass in terms of working hours in 4 months ? thats a cool 281600 hours of research design fabrication and maintainance time I´m convinced a decent group of specialists can work that one out.
Even Wirth Technologies had a cannon style exhaust ready for testing as long ago as Barcelona!...but yes they had no other trouble with their car...

carry over potential is of no considertion in a big team you develop for speed as long as you have recources available .the board decides when to switch everything to next campaign.F-ducts were developed the whole season last year.You always learn .And if it´s only the confidence to know you fully understood the technology.

[Dragonfly]

On topic before we become derailed again,


What other additions can mercedes add to the exhaust? It looked quite well executed to be fair, although the diffuser retained the White of the zircotec material.
This is an area that is dead for 2012, so i doubt mercedes will look too deeply here.
This double pivoted suspension is provoking some thought in the office.... Are there any pictures any one can illustrate for my small brain??

Thanks in advance

I think they do all with next year's car in mind. Not to make the same mistakes again. And this may be the reason to not copy the EBD solution immediately - they had to locate and fix the basic problems which otherwise they'd probably carry into the next year when EBD is banned.

As for the suspension, just a wild guess - I'm driving a Citroen with hydropheumatic suspension, left and right side of each axle are connected and if one wheel gets more load, the increased pressure pushes liquid to the other cylinder. Maybe the same principle but between front and rear axle. Don't know how such interaction is viewed by the rules prohibiting active suspension.

[marcush.]

interconnection of wheels is certainly nothing new and per se not forbidden.
to have a entirely mechanical connection of front and rear wheels seems posssible but awkward in terms of installation but why not a hydraulic link ...Tyrrell did try this a long time ago if I remember correctly ...

certainly the official statements by Brawn do not shed a positive light on their R&D ...to now state we have reached the end of the road with our exhaust and start development with RBR exhaust just now and already find more potential...crickey ....you guys should have evaluated the possibilities a lot deeper BEFORE committing to second best AND compromising your car design to allow for it...
Clearly the decision process right at the startz of the new project are very wrong ...you have very basic choices at the start of a new car and sure Mercedes took a few wrongs in this ...and this is the perfect copy of W01 in this regard.

So if i were Brawn I´d look very deeply into just why it is possible to convince 400+ people to move concerted into the wrong direction...especially when the cannon style exhaust was the obvious solution to the new regs ....

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Ok at the risk of seeming irate, I will just say we have been here on this thread regards Mercedes "incompetance".
Can I just point out they are the fourth best team of 12? Which puts them in the upper 33% of F1 teams.

I agree Iam surprised Mercedes took so long to change to the cannon exhaust.
But Dren reminded me of WHY Mercedes took so long.

Haug issued a statement in Australia saying the team will not be adding any upgrades to the W02, until the cooling issues have been sorted out.
We saw in Silverstone Mercedes were running their solution to cooling, which worked. On top of that they added a new floor, new diffuser and new exhaust.

So Mercedes are remaining true to Haugs words(for a change), and I think the step by step appoach we have seen them adopt this year is working better than the 2010 approach of adding things to the car not knowing what works.

Expect a more refined car for Germany.

[jav]

JET-

the problem that many of us have is that W02 was supposed to be more competitive than W01 from the start. This WAS the stated goal when W01 development stopped. Clearly, W02 has failed to deliver results even at W01 levels (points wise). To take solice in a (just recently acheived) 4th place standing (top 33%), is looking at things with rose colored glasses.

W02 is just now showing the type of hopeful promise that was expected at testing. The numerous (very early) comments about the cars lack of polish, rudimentry systems, questionable execution and reliability issues have proven to be more accurate than the cheerleaders (and the teams apparent) perspective.

Perhaps going forward, W02'S development can outpace the competition but lets be honest- the car may become clearly the best of the bottom 66%- but the car is still not worthy of a secure spot among the top 3. The team is still grappling with reliability concerns at this stage per Brawn. I find it difficult to be impressed at this point.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Jav

The W02 is an improved car over the W01, the problem is the first 3 races of 2010, Rosberg got two podiums due to others misfortune etc.
Thats racing.

However Mercedes did make expressly clearly that things will be different this year in the way they operate upgrades.
Problems need to be solved first before anything is added.

So Mercedes worked on a cooling and tyre solution before it added anything performance enhancing.
We saw at silverstone the additions Mercedes have worked on. so its not as if they have been sitting on their hands the last 3 months doing nothing.

Mercedes may have gained an odd tenth here or their with their midmounted exhaust in relation to the cooling woes they suffered. Change the exhaust layout to the Cannon style...but keep the pre silverstone cooling arrangement and the cars may have overheated by half distance.

Perhaps the concession needed to be made to the cooling of the car to revert to the cannon style exhaust was too much? Only now that a solution has been found can they actually change to this new style...that for me is the likely scenario.

We saw how they struggled with louvres and vents etc, the SWB does them no favours either....

[Ferraripilot]

JET does have a very good point in that MB has been true to their words this year. We have zero idea what takes place behind closed doors or under those sidepods regarding their cooling and reliability issues. It could very well be that the benefits the EBD RB exhaust added could not yet outweigh the current issues they faced. Also, adding this style EBD was a huge undertaking and required massive changes which someone else already addressed. Not easy on this car.

W02 is the first 100% new car this new team has really designed, so expecting high level of competitiveness was probably optimistic. Their new EBD has probably given them half a second but they still need another half a second! I suspect they will take the knowledge they acquire from these gains and bank them for future benefit.

I believe due to lack of testing that F1 is changing in that we will see continuous upgrades to a car throughout a season by everyone and not see so many teams dump their current car in favor of developing the next. I do believe that is going to be a thing of the past. The remaining races need to be used as testing grounds which I believe is what Brawn is doing with W02 for the benefit of W03.