Mercedes GP W02

[Pierce89]

Jav,

Iam in absolute agreement with that assesment. their is historical precedent to know that Honda then Brawn and now Mercedes have struggled to get what they know on the drawing board to that what should work on the track.

To keep this on topic, I think the flaws we see related to the car are intrinsically related to the hardware and numbers that are being brought up.

The W01 had fundamental flaws, the W02 is not doing what the drawing board/computer says it should.
Brawn was excited about the W02, and in fairness the car is very far removed from anything else out their.
But look at this in context. When the Daimler sim computers are fully operational sometime in august(a little bird whispered to me ) we shall see how Mercedes addresses the W02 flaws.

The W02 is as fast in a straightline as anything out their, a testament to their windtunnel. But the moment it requires downforce and grip(hardware resource heavy features) it is way, way off.
Bob Bell will have seen many things he likes and dislikes with the W02 and I think it a matter of time before we see this car really challenging, due to him having some knowledge on Renault and its "decent @ low speed" R31 car.

And Dren thanks for the input, I meant the vacuum pressure (sticking the car to the ground) but your knowledge in this area is far better than mine, I hastily admit

While Merc obviously have a good DRS, I believe the main reason for the good top speeds is a lack of downforce compared to the frontrunning cars. Like the 09 Force India but not quite as bad. It seems to me Merc is MORE worried about doing things their own way than build a fast car. They have many unique features, but the optimum solution to these regs is there for everyone to see. Sitting on pole every other Saturday.

[munudeges]

If the reason for their rear tyre problems were as simple as they were blowing xhaust gasses on them, it's simply unfathomable if it took this team 8 races to figure that out! More than that, unfathomable!

Picked up this thread a little late, but to be fair X, I think they did know. The engine (the only decent thing in the car) people probably came up with this nice method of creating hotter gas that in turn could be used to create more downforce in a brute fashion that would take the heat, so to speak, off the aerodynamacists and the inability of the mechanical people to come up with elegant solutions. They were then faced with something that would overheat their rear tyres or give them a short term performance hit that would be useful to them in qualifying. To be honest, if you're Mercedes now you'll take whatever you can get regardless of the downsides.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Dren +1

Pierce,

I understand that the RB7 is fantastic, but copying will probably only yield a result 2nd best to Red Bull. The W02 is nothing if not fresh in certain ideas, and for that you have to say Mercedes risked alot to get the W02 ahead of its competition.

The car led a race on merit. So, we know there is potential even discounting Barcelona's test times.

What Mercedes need to do is react. And reacting is something we see them doing.
I mentioned earlier the car had a new floor, new diffuser, new exhaust and a thoroughly rethought cooling system.

When was the last time a team did that and got 2 points finishes first time out mid season? Or, when was the last time a team did that and showed verifiable improvements in performance AND tyre degredation? Giving the undertaking to change all of these systems on the car, and to get a result is a fantastic achievement.
Certainly better than the W01 and its hit and miss ratio with updates.

I have yet to see anyone give the team credit for this, but still I understand the misgivings.
I see today Brawn is very optimistic for Germany as the team now have 2 weeks to refine this new exhaust. Of course this is not the magic bullet, but if it sees them knicking points of Mclaren(long time partners) here and there, then who can question Mercedes competance regards the W02?

[xpensive]

If the reason for their rear tyre problems were as simple as they were blowing xhaust gasses on them, it's simply unfathomable if it took this team 8 races to figure that out! More than that, unfathomable!

Picked up this thread a little late, but to be fair X, I think they did know. The engine (the only decent thing in the car) people probably came up with this nice method of creating hotter gas that in turn could be used to create more downforce in a brute fashion that would take the heat, so to speak, off the aerodynamacists and the inability of the mechanical people to come up with elegant solutions. They were then faced with something that would overheat their rear tyres or give them a short term performance hit that would be useful to them in qualifying. To be honest, if you're Mercedes now you'll take whatever you can get regardless of the downsides.

More after-constructions, I think you give the MGP design-team way too much credit here, if you look at that original xhaust, it's embarrasingly unsophisticated in its rudimentary xecution. Hacksaw technology and then when you look at the poor fit, doh? I think it was just a simple solution which didn't take too much engineering or manufacturing effort.

[munudeges]

I'm not saying it isn't poorly constructed, just that they knew the downside of what they were doing but couldn't do anything about it because they simply aren't good enough aerodynamically or mechanically. The engine has come to the rescue for them. I would hazard a guess McLaren aren't getting that kind of help and are starting to feel a bit peeved.

In all honesty, that 'new' exhaust looks like it's been hacksawed off a road car. Surely they could look at other cars along the pit lane?

[dren]

But there was a lot of engineering that went into the double radiator layout and internal packaging all for the SWB and midship exhaust. The midship exhaust was fully functional and effective. I don't see what else they really could have done to make it much better other than the fitting...which sort of was needed to tie the gills into the hole.

[ell66]

Jav,

Iam in absolute agreement with that assesment. their is historical precedent to know that Honda then Brawn and now Mercedes have struggled to get what they know on the drawing board to that what should work on the track.

To keep this on topic, I think the flaws we see related to the car are intrinsically related to the hardware and numbers that are being brought up.

The W01 had fundamental flaws, the W02 is not doing what the drawing board/computer says it should.
Brawn was excited about the W02, and in fairness the car is very far removed from anything else out their.
But look at this in context. When the Daimler sim computers are fully operational sometime in august(a little bird whispered to me ) we shall see how Mercedes addresses the W02 flaws.

The W02 is as fast in a straightline as anything out their, a testament to their windtunnel. But the moment it requires downforce and grip(hardware resource heavy features) it is way, way off.
Bob Bell will have seen many things he likes and dislikes with the W02 and I think it a matter of time before we see this car really challenging, due to him having some knowledge on Renault and its "decent @ low speed" R31 car.

And Dren thanks for the input, I meant the vacuum pressure (sticking the car to the ground) but your knowledge in this area is far better than mine, I hastily admit

I think its safe to say that this car also hd fundamental flaws.
and fyi the r31 does not hve good low speed cornering, theyv even admited as much them selves.

[dren]

In all honesty, that 'new' exhaust looks like it's been hacksawed off a road car. Surely they could look at other cars along the pit lane?

Mclaren's looked similar when they first put it on. So did a few of the other teams. The refinement came later.

[jav]

If the reason for their rear tyre problems were as simple as they were blowing xhaust gasses on them, it's simply unfathomable if it took this team 8 races to figure that out! More than that, unfathomable!

Picked up this thread a little late, but to be fair X, I think they did know. The engine (the only decent thing in the car) people probably came up with this nice method of creating hotter gas that in turn could be used to create more downforce in a brute fashion that would take the heat, so to speak, off the aerodynamacists and the inability of the mechanical people to come up with elegant solutions. They were then faced with something that would overheat their rear tyres or give them a short term performance hit that would be useful to them in qualifying. To be honest, if you're Mercedes now you'll take whatever you can get regardless of the downsides.

More after-constructions, I think you give the MGP design-team way too much credit here, if you look at that original xhaust, it's embarrasingly unsophisticated in its rudimentary xecution. Hacksaw technology and then when you look at the poor fit, doh? I think it was just a simple solution which didn't take too much engineering or manufacturing effort.

X-

I agree. The efficacy of the design team has been lacking and the execution as well.

I don't doubt a lot of thought and analysis went into the chosen direction BUT in the end- it didn't work. Further, there are degrees to this failure.

If they aimed at a "goal" and achieved their aim, it could be viewed as a success even if that goal was set too low. And I say "set too low" in relation to what it would take to compete at the front... which I concede was an unknown when they started developing W02. But by my impression is, this isn't the case.

It seem's their goals were higher and I would bet they acheived their goals in simulation. But - on the track, reality proved different and since then, they've been dealing with the disparity reactively by trial and error. I can somewhat understand that becuase if your engineering simulations let you down- relying on them for the solutions seems rather silly.

For this reason, I have to agree that credit given the design team is probably too high in some circles.

I think Brawn ET AL knows this as well.

[xpensive]

Just imagine the W02 with a Cosworth engine and the straight-line speed that would go with it?

[marcush.]

I don´t think it´s an equipment issue .
Brawn stated already there is more to come from the borrowed exhaust solution...
So they actually have verified that Cannon beats midship exhaust fair and square.
They frankly admit going down the wrong road on several accounts...As the team starting their 2011 contender development as one of the first this is really a sign of not having the right decision process in place.. time is not the factor .
I think some people there come up with unique ideas and there is just nobody in there to contest those proposals ...as X said ..a manager is rarely in a position to call bullshit what it is so my guess is they were not really honest with themselves when asking :is our concept a world beater or do we have to think harder and look more into why REDBull is so much better?
They adopted a high nose-clearly not needed to win races
They adopted pullrod rear suspension -not needed to win races

I´d think they realy seem unable to separate nice to have features from performance differntiators-see their airbox design last year-all for the bin ...lots of research and time was bound into that develoipment only to drop it for 2011..

The car does not have a much engineered looks to it .Yeah some guy had that double radiator idea ,compromising the rest of the car.. not very impressive..

[Morteza]

I don´t think it´s an equipment issue .
Brawn stated already there is more to come from the borrowed exhaust solution...
So they actually have verified that Cannon beats midship exhaust fair aand square.
They frankly admit going down the wrong road on several accounts...As the team sroping the tools for their 2010 contender development this is really a sign of not having the right decision process in place.. time is not the factor .
I think some people there come up with unique ideas and there is just nobody in there to contest those proposals ...as X said ..a manager is rarely in a position to call bullshit what it is so my guess is they were not really honest with themselves when asking :is our concept a world beater or do we have to think harder and look more into why REDBull is so much better?
They adopted a high nose-clearly not needed to win races
They adopted pullrod rear suspension -not needed to win races

I´d think they realy seem unable to separate nice to have features from performance differntiators-see their airbox design last year-all for the bin ...lots of research and time was bound into that develoipment only to drop it for 2011..

The car does not have a much engineered looks to it .Yeah some guy had that double radiator idea ,compromising the rest of the car.. not very impressive..

+1 Marcus

It seems that these ideas come out of the blue! I know innovations are nice things, but not all innovations turn out to be good ones. Mercedes exhaust solution has failed as it seems so. You mentioned the high nose and pullrod suspension and you are so right. A car is a package. You have different parts as divisions in it. Each part you got there should be compatible with the package. Your package must go together. A high nose will not bring you a miracle overnight. The design team seems to have had no guide when designing the car.

[rdr]

I understand that the RB7 is fantastic

Meh, more like Cinderella, whose golden carriage turned into a pumpkin, after midnight (off-throttle ban).

[rdr]

why REDBull is so much better?

marcush, and what do you think about it?
Why?

[wesley123]

I understand that the RB7 is fantastic

Meh, more like Cinderella, whose golden carriage turned into a pumpkin, after midnight (off-throttle ban).

indeed it lost 3 races this year and was in every event on pole this year, the car indeed is only good because of their EBD