Mercedes GP 2011

[PlatinumZealot]

Yes, that is why I, personally, am looking forward to his resignation at the end of the year.

[Richard]

Comparing results for first 9 races:

Code: Select all

2010 - 109 Points - 4th in  WCC
BHR	AUS	MAL	CHN	ESP	MON	TUR	CAN	EUR 	
6   	10	Ret 	10  	4 	12  	4 	11 	15 	
5   	 5  	3  	3 	13  	7  	5  	6 	10 	


2011 - 68 Points - 4th in WCC
AUS	MAL	CHN	ESP	MON	TUR	CAN	EUR	GBR
Ret 	 9  	8 	 12	6 	Ret  	4 	17  	9
Ret 	12  	5 	  5	7  	11     11 	7  	6

[marcush.]

Mercedes have put themselves in a disastrous position with Brawn.
He has grabbed the Honda remains for almost nothing laid of a lot of people to cut the personal risk and sailed home with the championship BUT the real feat was to sell the hole shebang to Norbert for a lot of money ..

But then ..why didn´t he call it quits when selling to MB? Was it perhaps MB thinking he is the key to success ? Having him financially involved would motivate him to stay successful ...maybe that was the line of thought ..Or ross believe his troop was really that good...and had to find out the hard way how far from reality his dream was.
MB has bought out Brawn and the other shareholders..clearly in a first step to have free hands to get rid of them .But why did they retain Fry and Brawn after that first year disaster is not clear to me.Brawn and Norbert had promised championship contenders and delivered second string and sometimes also ran and look what Mercedes left behind for this..
Brawn is there because of old sentiments he wants to emulate his success with Schumacher a third time.Having won a worldchampionship to his own name he must believe he is the key to success but now he needs to find explanations for not performing ..like john Owen carrying design responsibility for the car first time -who was responsible for the concept of BGP001 and W01 -Zander?-

[Morteza]

Mercedes have put themselves in a disastrous position with Brawn.
He has grabbed the Honda remains for almost nothing laid of a lot of people to cut the personal risk and sailed home with the championship BUT the real feat was to sell the hole shebang to Norbert for a lot of money ..

But then ..why didn´t he call it quits when selling to MB? Was it perhaps MB thinking he is the key to success ? Having him financially involved would motivate him to stay successful ...maybe that was the line of thought ..Or ross believe his troop was really that good...and had to find out the hard way how far from reality his dream was.
MB has bought out Brawn and the other shareholders..clearly in a first step to have free hands to get rid of them .But why did they retain Fry and Brawn after that first year disaster is not clear to me.Brawn and Norbert had promised championship contenders and delivered second string and sometimes also ran and look what Mercedes left behind for this..
Brawn is there because of old sentiments he wants to emulate his success with Schumacher a third time.Having won a worldchampionship to his own name he must believe he is the key to success but now he needs to find explanations for not performing ..like john Owen carrying design responsibility for the car first time -who was responsible for the concept of BGP001 and W01 -Zander?-

That is a big question Marcus. Did it come out of the blue?
Wikipedia(I know it can't be taken for granted) says this:
Thomas Fuhr (Managing Director)
Kevin Taylor (Chief Designer)
Loïc Bigois (Head of Aerodynamics)
Craig Wilson (Head of Vehicle Engineering & Dynamics)
Zander left Brawn GP in June of 2009. I think I read sth you had written which said that Zander and Owen came to Brawn together. Losing Zander I think is/was the biggest loss for Mercedes/Brawn.

[raymondu999]

But then ..why didn´t he call it quits when selling to MB? Was it perhaps MB thinking he is the key to success ?

IIRC Merc had a clause in the sale contract saying that he had to stay onboard as TP... no?

[Ferraripilot]

But then ..why didn´t he call it quits when selling to MB? Was it perhaps MB thinking he is the key to success ?

IIRC Merc had a clause in the sale contract saying that he had to stay onboard as TP... no?

Right, it was sort of a package deal.


I'm still not seeing how the growing pains MB are going through are different to what RB was going through just 3-4 years ago. The two seem to be very similar in that they both have people on the team who previously won championships. I have no doubt in the team personel, but as stated prior it does take time. RB was a perfect example in that they seemed to have just 'got it' with the RB5 at the end of the season. And the rest of course is history.

If Honda/Toyota taught us anything, it is that it matters not how much cash is thrown at a team.

[marcush.]

zander does not really look unavailable as he has a consulting company ..
but$ I´m not sure if he was the key asset slipped through Brawns fingers..I could imagine he went or was made leaving clashing with Brawn? It seems rather odd the technical director of the championship winning car to be is not snapped up by other outfits....why didn´t this happen and he just left F1

the big difference to Jaguar is surely that in 2009 the car and team won both championships and apart from Barrichello and Button there were no big changes on the human side..apart from Branson leaving the partss and wobbly Norbert now gluing the star on the nose of the car...

[xpensive]

I think the entire pit-lane, including Jenson Button, is aware that Brawn's 2009 season was a result of rule-bending, stemming from an outrageous collusion between Ross Brawn and his former top-boss, MrM, who wanted to upset the FOTA applecart.

Remember how MrM called the case himself as early as January, without even bothering to consult Charlie Whiting?

I'm afraid this might have caused hard feelings, why perhaps the people inolved have less of a market value than xpected.

[Ferraripilot]

I'm afraid this might have caused hard feelings, why perhaps the people inolved have less of a market value than xpected.

They are above such things as hard feelings. Business was business and they were looking out for the best interest of their business. What's done is done and holding grudges is for housewives, not professionals. Have a look at Schumacher and Ferrari, they remain best of friends despite some fans who I could swear were be paid by Ferrari to hate Schumacher. People are odd.

[PlatinumZealot]

I think the entire pit-lane, including Jenson Button, is aware that Brawn's 2009 season was a result of rule-bending, stemming from an outrageous collusion between Ross Brawn and his former top-boss, MrM, who wanted to upset the FOTA applecart.

Remember how MrM called the case himself as early as January, without even bothering to consult Charlie Whiting?

I'm afraid this might have caused hard feelings, why perhaps the people inolved have less of a market value than xpected.

But Toyota and Williams had double deck diffusers too, so rule bending is a contributing factor but not the major reason IMO. I think it was all the money that went into developing the
bgp001... one of the most, if not the most expensive formula 1 car ever.

[marcush.]

Toyota stated the real advantaage of Brawn was the outwash front wing they had .They were the ones to come up with a near optimum front wing solution for the new regs.

obviously the paddock picked up on the idea and already in 2009 their advantage was wiped out come midseason.
The most expensive F1 car ever is really a myth ...based on what ?Alex wurz stating this sometime..yes ..but reality is:
the car was not designed for the Mercedes engine and had to live with overheating issues or at least severe water and oil temps
The car had to live with a step gear arrangement to accomodate the differnt crankshaft heights of the Honda and Mercedes engine...
it was short on mileage when the season started
they laid of a lot of people of the team even before the season started.

So ..no it was not the ddd that was giving them that advantage .Others had similar concepts at the season start.
The BGP001 was a good car simple as that

[raymondu999]

But we do have to remember that that had investment since early 2007

[xpensive]

Well, I think it's safe to say that mid-season everybody had double-diffusers and whatever advantage they had is long gone now.

Without MrM, they would never had one either.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Without MrM, they would never had one either.

Unfounded dross.

You can label that accusation to any winning team over the last 20 years, they all have bits that dont truly conform to the regs.
Red bull with Flexing wings, Ferrari with Barge boards and Mclaren with traction control 3rd pedals.

This really is beginning to sound like you have more than just serious beef with Brawn. I would say its increasingly unhealthy for you X. Stick to berating the W02 and its "poor finish", its what your good at

[Ferraripilot]

Without MrM, they would never had one either.

Unfounded dross.

You can label that accusation to any winning team over the last 20 years, they all have bits that dont truly conform to the regs.
Red bull with Flexing wings, Ferrari with Barge boards and Mclaren with traction control 3rd pedals.

+1 agreed. Whether or not Ross contributes to the design of a car, it doesn't matter. Ross' position and technique as a team head and coodinator is what has won championships in the past making his technical knowledge or contributions irrelevant. The number of championships he has won also shows it doesn't so much matter who is under him (although it helps), as if that were the case he would be no more than a 1 or 2 hit wonder.