Mercedes GP 2011

[PlatinumZealot]

Toyota stated the real advantaage of Brawn was the outwash front wing they had .They were the ones to come up with a near optimum front wing solution for the new regs.

obviously the paddock picked up on the idea and already in 2009 their advantage was wiped out come midseason.
The most expensive F1 car ever is really a myth ...based on what ?Alex wurz stating this sometime..yes ..but reality is:
the car was not designed for the Mercedes engine and had to live with overheating issues or at least severe water and oil temps
The car had to live with a step gear arrangement to accomodate the differnt crankshaft heights of the Honda and Mercedes engine...
it was short on mileage when the season started
they laid of a lot of people of the team even before the season started.

But that merc engine is an upgrade! The engine package was very reliable and the short notice installation even highlights how great the car was, because even with the packaging complications it was still the best car at beginning of the year.

Anyway.. from what stands out in my memory of the brawn was the monstrous race pace it had. I remember Brawn fuelling the cars for 27 laps, every body else fueling for 19, 20 laps, and them still qualify in the top five! Then on Sunday every body else was blown into the weeds!

Even after the other teams caught up the car was still a decent racer even though upgrades were almost non-existent - just a flip up here, a fin there, a modified wing..

The Brawn BGP001; that was THE CAR!

[xpensive]

Without MrM, they would never had one either.

Unfounded dross.

You can label that accusation to any winning team over the last 20 years, they all have bits that dont truly conform to the regs.
Red bull with Flexing wings, Ferrari with Barge boards and Mclaren with traction control 3rd pedals.

This really is beginning to sound like you have more than just serious beef with Brawn. I would say its increasingly unhealthy for you X. Stick to berating the W02 and its "poor finish", its what your good at

I'm truly sorry that you again turn to attacking me personally JET, my opinion is that if Ferrari and McLaren had been the ones coming up with the rule-bending diffuser, trying "it's not a hole it's a slot", MrM had thrown them out directly.

Your ways of arguing, telling me what I should and should not have an opinion on, sadly documents the state of this forum.

Sad indeed.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I put it to you that Red Bull have flexing technology contrary to the spirit of the laws, very similar to that of the diffuser loophole in that it passes all the tests. Ferrari too, have had the benefit of many an FIA decision over the years. McLaren? Well 98 and 99 was also more to the car than just Mercedes grunt and Newey ingenuity. Every winning team has something on it that will transgress the interpretation of the law.
Therefore, why is it you feel necessary to single out Ross Brawn and his titles in 09? It seems you are forgetting other "gifts" to other teams.

If you made the point, then included all the teams instead of brawn I believe your argument would hold some water. But then, this is F1 X, it happens all the time. So it's a case of acceptance rather than singling out individuals for an historically polemic problem.

[dren]

[...] As for the team, now that Schumacher believes everything is in place, will we see improvement? If the team can sort out the car and improve relative to the others by the end of the season, I see the W03 being what the W02 was supposed to be...mixing it up for podiums and maybe a freak win here or there.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Dren,

The team are waiting for their sim to be fully operational. I expect once this is the case and Bob Bell can ring the neck of his personell with Brawn doing his head duties, we can expect to see the team improve.

Word is the sim is complete, but calibration of this tech takes time although we are now nearing completion of this.
Most woes stem from the old sim, mostly tyre and weight distribution issues in the W01 and 02. The 03 can expect to benefit from this, the 02 could still make reasonable gains if the calibration is succesful and accurate.

The team is slowly shedding its Tyrrel and Honda roots, too slowly for some evidently. Looking back I still think this is a worthwhile venture for Mercedes.
In time it could prove fruitful and you have to give them some credit when the likes of Audi and Porsche dont have the stones to do the same.

I see why Schumi is optimisitic, but it will take a sizeable gamble from them to hit 2012 running. Bring in Costa as a short term consultant to offer his opinion too. As good as Bell is, Costa may have some ideas beneficial to the squad as a whole, or possibly even some tips.

Another (good)set of eyes around the place wont do any harm in the short term I dont think.

Oh and for detractors, did it not take (ilmor) Mercedes nearly 4 years to win in F1? Just to put it in perspective....

[munudeges]

[...]

[dren]

Dren,

The team are waiting for their sim to be fully operational. I expect once this is the case and Bob Bell can ring the neck of his personell with Brawn doing his head duties, we can expect to see the team improve.

Word is the sim is complete, but calibration of this tech takes time although we are now nearing completion of this.
Most woes stem from the old sim, mostly tyre and weight distribution issues in the W01 and 02. The 03 can expect to benefit from this, the 02 could still make reasonable gains if the calibration is succesful and accurate.

The team is slowly shedding its Tyrrel and Honda roots, too slowly for some evidently. Looking back I still think this is a worthwhile venture for Mercedes.
In time it could prove fruitful and you have to give them some credit when the likes of Audi and Porsche dont have the stones to do the same.

I see why Schumi is optimisitic, but it will take a sizeable gamble from them to hit 2012 running. Bring in Costa as a short term consultant to offer his opinion too. As good as Bell is, Costa may have some ideas beneficial to the squad as a whole, or possibly even some tips.

Another (good)set of eyes around the place wont do any harm in the short term I dont think.

Oh and for detractors, did it not take (ilmor) Mercedes nearly 4 years to win in F1? Just to put it in perspective....

So is it tire modeling in the simulator? The team seems to have struggled with tires the past few years. Were they relying too heavily on the simulator for set-ups?

I think Mercedes got a steal when they bought the team. They aren't pouring much into the team financially, yet they are reaping the advertisement, plus they have Michael Schumacher to slap on there as well. Can't be all that bad...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Of course it isnt Dren.

But 4th to some people is like finishing last in a lower formula.

[dren]

Of course it isnt Dren.

But 4th to some people is like finishing last in a lower formula.

True, but when the team comes out at the start of the last two seasons stating their goals, and then they fall far short, it looks bad. But...if the team is getting good numbers in the simulator but failing to reproduce those on the track, then that is understandable...and stems from what you are saying about the simulator.

Renault did the same this year as well though.

[xpensive]

@seg
If I would spill the beans on what my sentiments on MGP, as a corporate parallell to Toyota, it would be difficult to post. The way Daimler has let themselves to be taken by a con artist and a good for nothing journo, is nothing but a disgrace.

Without the first choice of MHPE engines, giving them superior top-speed, they would be fighting it out with Toro Rosso.

And for the record, I do hate Ross Brawn, after his colluding with MrM on the fake-diffuser, giving away the technology with an elbow to Toyota and Williams doesn't change a living thing. A Technical director without a degree, yeah right...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Of course it isnt Dren.

But 4th to some people is like finishing last in a lower formula.

True, but when the team comes out at the start of the last two seasons stating their goals, and then they fall far short, it looks bad. But...if the team is getting good numbers in the simulator but failing to reproduce those on the track, then that is understandable...and stems from what you are saying about the simulator.

Renault did the same this year as well though.

This is just it, Renault have been in F1 a good deal longer than Mercedes. Yet I see no stinging criticism there either. I think when you look closely at most of the responses on this and the W02 thread, it appears there is agreement that Mercedes did fail, yet they at least tried something different.

I totally go along with that. However, to plumb the depths and call the team out the way some have is a joke. This is my particular issue, and Im of the opinion its crass to dance and post inflammatory remarks about how poor these guys are. Its there second season.
And I would say 99% of Mercedes GP technical staff have more on there detractors on these pages....for me that is enough.


@ Nm
I think it has to do with tyre compound differences and temp differences too. If its cool and the tyre harder, Mercedes appear better.

[Giblet]

Mercedes set some lofty goals and has not reached them. However, I think they are doing a better job with many of the same tools, same people, and less money than Honda did prior to the sale.

The team has grown on me somewhat. Mostly because of Nico and his regular beating of his older and more experienced team mate as one of the best ongoing stories of 2010/2011.

I much more like this humbled Schumi who seems to be acting with more humility and grace than in the past.

[marcush.]

In my book Formula 1 and racing as such is not perfectly understood technically even though a lot of boffins seem to be prepared to ignore this fact.
A dead certain road into a desert ,if you ask me.
Not a single team has proved to understand each and everything managing to stay at the sharp end of the grid.
Williams raising from the very bottom to blossoming victories and now completely at a loss to explain just why it would not find the magic knack...
Team lotus with all their recruitments not really making that expected jump and Mercedes in no ways different to Renault switching performance on and of but not being aware what makes the whole zircus fly.
The sheer mass of data and information available seems to be perfectly suited to turn the engineers focus on wrong areas of development or direction and drivers ,are what they are ..easily impressed by all that technology only there to help them win ....
But as always .trash in -trash out...simple.
How hard is it to be a front runnér in F1? Money ? key people? facilities ,proceedures?

Mercedes clearly lack incredients to come up with a car at each weekend that is as quick as the quickest when it comes to laptime and elapsed time over race distance.
For whatever reason RedBulls Vettel side of the team makes a considerably better job constantly.
And for the Schumi ....isn´t it funny we are prepared to favour experience and former glory over youth and unquestioned speed? Formula1 has again and again shown it´s ugly face when it comes to kicking out experienced proven drivers for young guns .Now an old fart returns after years of retirement and we cannot applaud him for keeping the future star on his toes ?I´m pretty sure Rosberg has digged very deep inside to beat Schumacher in Qualy that often .He seems to be better in this Qualy format no question.But then Schumacher constantly has beaten Rosberg in his first lap performance as well.So To me Rosberg is just as good a qualifier as he is a mediocre starter...And this season he has not really outshined Schumacher in the races as well..So is it Schumacher improving or Rosberg showing sign of wear already? the points situation would hint at the second.

[Ferraripilot]

Mercedes set some lofty goals and has not reached them. However, I think they are doing a better job with many of the same tools, same people, and less money than Honda did prior to the sale.

The team has grown on me somewhat. Mostly because of Nico and his regular beating of his older and more experienced team mate as one of the best ongoing stories of 2010/2011.

I much more like this humbled Schumi who seems to be acting with more humility and grace than in the past.

Some great points there. Unfortunately Schu has been hampered with some terrible technical luck and luck in general, but I agree he is humbled compared to the days in '93 when he was fighting and passing Senna.

Honda proved it matters not how much cash is thrown at a team as they managed to throw prodigious amount of cashflow (as did Toyota) without a WCC/WDC to their name. MB has proven that with good and experienced management they can do a whole lot more. I see MB as a quasi RB team from a few years back only MB I believe have even more talent at their disposal than RB had. Now I hear RB's chief aerodynamacist may be going to MB which -if F1 racing were chess- would cause me to place my bets with MB in the coming 2-3 years. All they need is a bit of time for things to fall into place and they will have success. RB5 was a perfect example of a team all-of-the-sudden just 'getting it'. If MB were run bynon-championship winning people I would have my doubts, but their management and talent acquisition is a bit of a who's who in F1 today.

[NewtonMeter]

RB5 was a perfect example of a team all-of-the-sudden just 'getting it'. If MB were run bynon-championship winning people I would have my doubts, but their management and talent acquisition is a bit of a who's who in F1 today.

Although I agree with the majority of your post, I think the part I quoted might be a bit misunderstood.

It is true that RB started their winning ways with the RB5, but I do think it was down with them hitting a sweetspot with the radical '09 regulations (not by luck, but by AN's damn genius ofcourse).

I think it was Mario Theissen in the 08 season stating that to close the final gap to McLaren and Ferrari was supremely tough, as they had refined their designs to the point of absolute perfection and were just miles ahead in the detail work that nearly always gave them the 0.3 - 0.5 advantage over the rest.

But with the 09 regs it was back to square one for all and that's when Newey pounced. He started off with one of the best concepts of all and he'll likely keep on evolving it and it's gonna take a hell of an effort to try and overhaul them and the next major opportunity is likely the fresh 2014 rules.

But what do I know, my theory doesn't explain the 04-06 renaults or the 05 ferrari, but that's my story and I'm sticking with it...

Edit;
I think (admittedly poor) evidence of this is the MP4-18/19 in which ron stated that to make up the deficit to Ferrari they had to go in a completely new direction. The same appears to have happened with the MP4-26. Oh, and I just remembered the 2008 BMW (it's designation escapes me at the mo)was stated to be clean slate design as well. Oh oh oh!!! And I just deduced that all those cars were desperately troublesome during testing. The mp4-18 to the extent it never even raced. I feel like Sherlock now...lol.