Mercedes GP 2011

[cirrusflyer]

Now an old fart returns after years of retirement and we cannot applaud him for keeping the future star on his toes ?I´m pretty sure Rosberg has digged very deep inside to beat Schumacher in Qualy that often .He seems to be better in this Qualy format no question.But then Schumacher constantly has beaten Rosberg in his first lap performance as well.So To me Rosberg is just as good a qualifier as he is a mediocre starter...And this season he has not really outshined Schumacher in the races as well..So is it Schumacher improving or Rosberg showing sign of wear already? the points situation would hint at the second.

If somebody is interested replaying past races and analizing them ( lets say hmm... NR vs. MS... or any other driver), can do that on this site (it is posible to compare positions, lap times, well...animated race):

http://www.visionf1.com/

If you know the site already, I apologise for intruding in the thread development.

[Ferraripilot]

There is no economic sense in running a non-winning outfit in F1 period pilot.

Because three seasons was the space of time they were giving themselves at the launch to fight for the title.

Which is something that won't happen, unless Bob Bell is a magician or something, but I seriously doubt that.

A plausible 2013, would perhaps include a sale to David Richards, but the three- pointed star in 2013, forget it.

Where are you getting these figures? I will tell you something you already know. In the world of F1, having a front-running competitive team in 3 seasons would require nothing short of a miracle. MB has been supplying engines and watching the game long enough to know this let alone decide to throw money into a project. Throwing money into the project I have zero doubt involved digging into F1 far deeper than any one of us have knowledge regarding. I also have no doubt they had surveys completed by test groups of buyers, non-buyers, employees, financial reports from other teams involved in F1, cost/benefit reviews to no end etc regarding bringing a F1 team into the mix to test the waters for marketing purposes. Don't insult yourself in believing MB went into to this as an uncalculated turn-key no-effort endeavor. Suggesting anything of the such only makes oneself look bad.

Have a look at RB until the the end of '09. They were far and away worse off than MB. Let me emphasize their monumental initial failures even further; not a podium finish until their third year and that was the same year their cars DNF'd a massive 7 times of 17 races. They finished no better than 5th in the constructors until '09, which was no less than 5 years into Deiter's F1 endeavor. I can't imagine the discouragement that team felt those first 5 years. Point is, MB has picked up their pieces and are in a far better position albeit still not quite where they want to be. Compared to other start-up F1 team, they are massively good and have talented people running things. No brainer. They will win, a lot, and very soon.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Ferraripilot

You make sound points.

X is getting hung up on the fact Dr Zetsche pointed to a "three year" plan. But lets look at this with a full understanding of the situation.
In 2009, The world was in the midst of the worst credit crisis the world had seen, and Mercedes were acting as guarantors to take the team on...with Zetsche stipulating no Mercedes money will be spent on MGP.

He was under pressure from his own labour union director, hence why certain fiscal comments were made.

We know this now not to be the case given the Sim tech Daimler have installed. We also know that Mclaren wanted to grow in competition to big daddy Mercedes, something Stuttgart were highly miffed at of course.

So from on high, a team starts using Mercedes V8's and trashes its opponents, including McLaren. You dont have to be a mug to see there would be potential at a team like this.
Mercedes picked up a race ready squad for 100million. Show me any team coming into F1 achieving the results they have for the outlay...bang for the buck if you prefer.

Now we hear their own drivers saying this could be a longer project than first anticipated. So it means they failed their lofty expectations, but still aiming for getting there sometime.

I think even if you hate Brawn, you cannot escape the fact Mercedes picked up a bargain. They are racing, getting full exposure for the same outlay as it had with partners Mclaren. The results arent the same....yet. But it took Mercedes 3 years to win with Mclaren, and even that was a "gift" from Williams to Mclaren.

Losing sight of the big picture is easy when you are clouded with hatred.

[PlatinumZealot]

I have a feeling, right before the regulation changes of 2014, Mercedes will pull out and sell the team to Brawn for 1 Mark/Euro...whatever Germans use now...and then he will win with a 2014 Mercedes chassis and a Honda engine (they will reenter as an engine supplier). The car will be utterly dominant, and will feature bright chartruse whisps along the sides on a very plain white car.

Romantic.. but I think the Mercedes race team has gained much value. Not value as in money but value as a brand. They Have MSC, Rosberg, Ross Brawn.. the silver paint. It's not like BMW who were trying for 9 years with a recession at the end of it. There is so much to prove and so much to gain. We still haven't seen a true German designed Mercedes yet and MSC nor Rosberg haven't won in the car; there is so much promise in the team. Too classic a situation for Merc to drop the bat and go home IMO.

[xpensive]

...
In 2009, The world was in the midst of the worst credit crisis the world had seen, and Mercedes were acting as guarantors to take the team on...with Zetsche stipulating no Mercedes money will be spent on MGP.
...
I think even if you hate Brawn, you cannot escape the fact Mercedes picked up a bargain. They are racing,
....
Losing sight of the big picture is easy when you are clouded with hatred.

Unless you noticed , Europe has a debt crisis around the corner with the Euro falling apart, all to be paid by Germany.

Mercedes thought they picked up a race winning team at a bargain, not a hopeless midfield runner. So did MS I'm certain.

Hate is a strong word and should be used carefully, but in all honesty, I cannot see Ross Brawn getting many christmas cards.

[donskar]

Ferraripilot says it's a new team. JET says M-B bought a "race ready team." Which is it? M-B (IMHO) bought a recent WCC/WDC quality team. With all the investments they made, progress seems fitful if any at all. And I do not agree that silver paint and 2 Germans drivers LOSING races will generate positive PR. The average consumer is impressed by victories, not noble efforts.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Unless you noticed , Europe has a debt crisis around the corner with the Euro falling apart, all to be paid by Germany.

Mercedes thought they picked up a race winning team at a bargain, not a hopeless midfield runner. So did MS I'm certain.

Hate is a strong word and should be used carefully, but in all honesty, I cannot see Ross Brawn getting many christmas cards.

Melodramatic.
But, Mercedes are not in the same position now as they were in 2009 X, this is the point. 2010 was a record year for them, so they are fairly cash rich right now and have appeased their labour unions by taking on more German workers, hence why this project has recieved no pressure from these unions as it did on its inception.

Donskar,

Its a "new" "race ready" team, meaning that Mercedes investment was for a complete team with 400 staff. Gestation periods for this thing normally runs into years, and not the 2 months Merc had.
The problem is it was a gutted race ready team. This is my view of course and Im sure you may have a polarised view, but the fact is the transformation from Honda to Brawn cost 300 staff, and its vaunted budget.
Nothing ever stays the same, and much like the moon waxes and wanes, every dog has its day

[xpensive]

Indeed JET, every dog has its day, but it seems as this particular one has had its party done and over with.

What is a relevant comparison, the x-stewart/jaguar team, how long did it take for them to get things right?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Indeed JET, every dog has its day, but it seems as this particular one has had its party done and over with.

What is a relevant comparison, the x-stewart/jaguar team, how long did it take for them to get things right?

5 years before Red Bull won.

[xpensive]

Indeed JET, every dog has its day, but it seems as this particular one has had its party done and over with.

What is a relevant comparison, the x-stewart/jaguar team, how long did it take for them to get things right?

5 years before Red Bull won.

Let's play witht thhat thought for alittle while JET, when Matechitz bought tht hopeless team he had a plan, does it look to you that Daimler had a useful such, or did they just but the lot on price and promise?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

X

Check your records, you will find red bull went backwards from their first season(effectively rehashed jags) to years 2 and 3.
Was that part of the masterplan mateschitz had?

Using your own barometers that you readily hand out to merc, red bull should have packed it all in at year 3.

[munudeges]

Where are you getting these figures? I will tell you something you already know. In the world of F1, having a front-running competitive team in 3 seasons would require nothing short of a miracle.

Mercedes bought a front running team with a fairly large technical lead and £60 million in cash kicking around. I really don't know why people keep giving the impression that this team suddenly sprang into existence in 2010. Well, maybe I do.

The Red Bull comparison is non-sensical. They had to turn around Jaguar (nuff said there), and they did it with a clear Team Principal and a clear Technical Director. When they started winning they stayed there.

Compared to other start-up F1 team, they are massively good and have talented people running things.

1. They are not a start-up team.

2. I see no evidence from the lineage of this team, through the Honda years and now, that they have talented people or are 'massively good'.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Mercedes bought a front running team with a fairly large technical lead and £60 million in cash kicking around. I really don't know why people keep giving the impression that this team suddenly sprang into existence in 2010.

Really?

You couldnt see their advantage being chewed up by red bull in 2009? Because the first half of 2009 was very different to the second half.

Ask yourself why. Be reasonable, and you will conclude that their lead time over the rest was pretty much gone by July 09.
Again, why? Hmmmm tough nut this.... because maybe a few hundred staff got laid off 6months before? Just an idea, Im mean its a huge long shot too lose your workforce and then also your funding and then, also half your R&D potential in one hit, and then not suffer any problems.

Hell, why dont all the teams do it if it doesnt have any repercussions.

There is of course very good reasons why.

The Red Bull comparison is non-sensical. They had to turn around Jaguar (nuff said there), and they did it with a clear Team Principal and a clear Technical Director. When they started winning they stayed there.

They actually went backwards even in relation to Jaguar. Where are you getting this from?
When I get in from work I will source all the data of Red Bulls winless seasons and I can tell you its not an upward trend the first three years.
It took a huge Rule change for them to be in business too.
They took over from a previosu team, and lost no staff in the transition and also had access to Red Bulls vast sums, so your right...Red Bull should in fact have a better record at their inception...but they dont.

[xpensive]

I actually don't think it's premature to discuss the future of this team after 1012. Who's gonna run it, as it will certainly not be the three-pointed star,when I cannot foresee Daimler wasting more money and time on this clutter?

Ny predictions is that they will ditch it, selling off to David Richards or another pretender, while MHPE will return to McLaren with their best engines.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

x

did you not predict Schuimacher to by gone by midway through 2010?
And for Mercedes to change to Nissan/AMG(hmmmmmm) by 2011?