Mercedes GP 2011

[raymondu999]

Fwiw, when bob bell took over from mike Gascoine as Renault TD, Alonso started winning, and designed the 2005/2006 monsters

[xpensive]

Alonso won his first race in Mike Gascoyne's car in Hungary 2003, but the big difference for Bell was that as from 2004 and on he had a conventional 72 degree V10 at his disposal and not the 111 degree unit that Gascoyne had to try to package.

But Bob Bell is very good, no doubt about it, the way he integrated the Michelins with his mass damper suspension was classy.

[raymondu999]

Wasn't Gascoyne in Toyota in 2003? Though his involvement in Renault 2002 would mean the 2003 Renault would've been his work though

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Where the mass dampers bob bells baby?

[xpensive]

Gascoyne left Renault in October 2003 for his "gardening leave" in order to join Toyota in 2004, to be replaced by Bob Bell.

With Bob Bell as Technical director from October 2003, the 2005 mass-damper should have been conceived under his watch.

[raymondu999]

I wonder if right now, Bell isn't working on the W02 at all, and instead is working on the W03/04 plus restructuring of the technical department

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I wonder if right now, Bell isn't working on the W02 at all, and instead is working on the W03/04 plus restructuring of the technical department

I think it certain that Mercedes are underway with the W03. From what Brawn has said that "next years car will be longer" through to the team saying not to expect anything else at all on the W02, only minor details.

Heres Brawns take on why they went SWB and why they wont do it next year.

The Mercedes GPW02 is the car with the shortest wheelbase in the field . Compared to the McLaren its missing 27 centimeters. The aerodynamics experts wanted it this way, because they believed that the faster air arrives on the tail, the SWB is the area where the flow can slow down by friction. The basic idea may be true, but the mechanical disadvantages outweigh the benefits. "With a full tank, gravity is higher," Brawn regrets. "It also has a larger effect on tire wear. Therefore, we find it so difficult to find a good setup. Either it fits the qualifications or the race.

Sourced from AMuS so excuse the dodgy translation I tried to touch it up...

[raymondu999]

I think it's a slight exaggeration that nothing will be retained from this year's car. I agree that it won't be an *evolution* of this year's car, but whatever has been learnt about this year's car, would also be applied to next year's.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Perhaps in the sense of what not to do?

They missed the mark with the car, the people responsible for the wheelbase and the ramifications that had on the rest of the design have to hold their hands up and say...We F'ed up. And twice in a row now too, 3 times lucky or will Bob wield the axe?

Personally im in favour of the a mixture of axe and investigation.
The aero guys seem to be patching what the others are messing up. And the others are messing up perhaps because the aero guys are trying something to fancy and that demands far more than what they actually have.

Brawns explanation seems to me that agreement was reached on a hypothetical concept, and that it would ask a lot of the packaging and KERS and even tyre guys to come up with a solution to run this concept. Now that they cant match each other up they seem to be at a loose end.
I would also hazard a guess the decision to cut losses and focus more attention on 2012 was Bells idea.

Im also guessing with his reputation, he would have known whom he wants to work with at Mercedes and who was not pushing their weight.
We're all aware of the Neweys, prodromou's and Costa's of the F1 world....but what of the other lesser known, but bright engineers?

Again im pretty sure Bell would be aware of some he'd want.

To go back to what the W03 will have that is shared with the W02...Im guess F0108X V8, Mercedes/Zytek KERS, Silver paint job and a 3 pointed star. Thats it.
Not even the Pirelli's will be the same and the standard mass distribution rule of 2011 will be abolished for 2012, further scrutinising the department at Mercedes responsible for this sort of thing.

[Fil]

Brawn's explanation seems to me that agreement was reached on a hypothetical concept..

A far cry from the full-blown 3-car development that narrowed into the BGP001 hey!


The question internally has to have been, how did their initial simulations guide them 27cm in the wrong direction? That's a hell of a long way off the ideal path!!
And if those simulations were that incredibly wrong at the point of conception, how does that bode for the rest of the W02's development?

[xpensive]

Brawn's explanation seems to me that agreement was reached on a hypothetical concept..

A far cry from the full-blown 3-car development that narrowed into the BGP001 hey!

The question internally has to have been, how did their initial simulations guide them 27cm in the wrong direction? That's a hell of a long way off the ideal path!!
And if those simulations were that incredibly wrong at the point of conception, how does that bode for the rest of the W02's development?

A car some 250 mm off the wheelbase-norm and nobody responsible, this begs the question of who's in charge within this team, judging from their top-heavy management, nobody is, more like decision by comittee, "they can't fire us all"?

It also highlights the issue of Ross Brawn's technical competence, to enter the design-phaze thinking that everybody else are some ten inches wrong from perfection on a key measurement on the car, either documents technical hybris, an infantile idea of how technical development is performed or sheer stupidity. Don't know which is the worst really.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Equally it must be said that mercedes problems do correlate with their being no technical director to co-ordinate the team or crack skulls together when things awry.

Interesting also, that since bell has arrived all the upgrades have worked since being added to the car. Even the vaunte mk3 wing.
Coincidental?

[raymondu999]

What vaunted mk3 wing? Also, I may be wrong, but Bell's cars in the past have never struck me as outstanding in terms of downforce, rather shining mechanically, and innovativeness. I believe he asked about the possibility of a slotted (double) diffuser as well in 2008 and was turned down. Or so the myth goes

[marcush.]

To summarise:
The car concept was driven by AERO demands at the expense of mechanical engineering .So they had to overcome a loss of some 270 mm of wheelbase for packaging....

But :this car is not really excellling in Aero ,at least not in terms of downforce or efficiency ...we do see high topspeeds so the drag is low ..but it seems like thosenumbers are just there to prove a point -the benefit of the short car sporting less surface area -less surface friction losses.

In the end someone gave the nod to build this thing and what has to be erased is the process leading to this ill advised decision.You can change the whole technical department but taking decisions based on wrong or incomplete assumptions or theories bears high risk .
Still the reasoning for non success aired by team members seems very thin and not plausible to me .When I compromise my design for Aero then this car should be excelling where aero is king .But reality is ,it does not excell anywhere just in the first lap when Schumacher is atthe wheel and when intermediate tyres are mounted in Canada...hm.

[xpensive]

Furthermore marcush, when you consider the bold (or stoopid) decision to xplore an xtremely short wheelbase together with a new rear-supension and a tyre-heating xhaust, all on the same car, it's actually surprising they are fourth in the WCC, isn't it?

Speaks volumes of engine and drivers perhaps?