Is there any future in this?

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f1.redbaron
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Is there any future in this?

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There was a story on Discovery about the former Renault F1 engineer who developed a car (engine, actually) that runs on compressed air. What do you think about it? Any future in it?

http://www.theaircar.com/

http://www.theaircar.com/howitworks.html


P.S. One drawback to this idea is that it is very loud.

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flynfrog
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all engines run on compressed air the only differnce is how you get it seems like a waste of time to me how are they planning to compress all of that air electricty from a coal power plant?

manchild
manchild
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That's Guy Negré, guy who made first W engine back in the '60s and first F1 W12 engine that sadly never raced. It was mentioned here in the forum before together with compressed air powered car :wink:

viewtopic.php?t=590&postdays=0&postorde ... 2&start=15
flynfrog wrote:all engines run on compressed air the only differnce is how you get it seems like a waste of time to me how are they planning to compress all of that air electricty from a coal power plant?
Why does it has to be coal powerplant? :shock: What about water, wind, sun and nuclear fusion as source? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4629239.stm

Also, why did you wrote that "all engines run on compressed air"? :?
Last edited by manchild on 01 May 2006, 18:01, edited 1 time in total.

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f1.redbaron
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flynfrog wrote:all engines run on compressed air the only differnce is how you get it seems like a waste of time to me how are they planning to compress all of that air electricty from a coal power plant?
Yeah, but the difference is that there is no internal combustion. It is a compressed air that moves the piston up and down, and not the energy released when the gas/air mixture is ignited by the spark plug.

As far as recharging goes, apparently you can do about 400km on $2 dollars worth of electricity needed to recharge the tanks. (car comes with its own compressors).
manchild wrote:It was mentioned here in the forum before together with compressed air powered car :wink:
Sorry... :(

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Is there any future in this?

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Yes, there is a future. From the point of view of efficiency, it is claimed is unbeatable. I read about it a couple of years ago, and then the issue faded away. They were looking for investors. Then I saw somewhere that the Mexican government put an order for 40,000 taxis, to replace the aging Mexico City fleet, wich I imagine, gave some room to the firm. The advantages of this for a city like Mexico, where you cannot walk near main avenues, because you choke, is evident.

The inventor says that this technology is really old, super-proven and it is better than the aborted GM flywheels and batteries "en vogue". They showed everywhere a photo of a tramway (swiss?) that ran in 1900's with compressed air. They said you could fill your car in 1 hour with a normal pump and in 3-4 minutes with a high-pressure pump, at your house. Actually, they offered an "hybrid" version, wich proves the point that all internal combustion engines are really compressed air engines: it does not matter if you compress the air at a central station or if you "compress" it by detonating gasoline inside the cylinder.

Then you have the now defunct University of Washington concept of liquid nitrogen car (main constituent of atmosphere... mmmmmm... global freezing or what?) which could be generated using the exhaust gas of coal-based electricity plants, and of course, the electricity to compress it. Your car decompress the liquid nitrogen and move the pistons, exchanging heat through a radiator. They claimed 10-15 minutes for a filled tank. It is very similar to a "reversed" steam engine.

When you freeze the nitrogen, you get rid of nitric oxides (smog), of course. But you also freeze the CO2 (global warming) and sulphurs (acid rain), so, theoretically, you could remove them and use or store them (raw storage seems a bad idea, I guess, looking at nuclear energy, maybe they can be transformed into plants somehow...).

Voilá! You transform the coal plant from a carbon dioxide producer to a CO2 remover.

Both concepts are really disguised "electric cars", as you can figure out. But they make sense if they have better efficiency than hydrogen or "pure" electric cars. Both claim less cost per kilometer than gasoline!

You could check how the ample diffusion of both types of car could impact national electricity capital, already stretched, and, even more, water comsumption (for countries like mine with a lot of hydro power).
Ciro

manchild
manchild
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Compressed air powered locomotive - Renault 1921 :wink:

Image

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joseff
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The info on the website is a bit all obscure

On Noise:
"Unlike the majority of traditional cars on the market, MDI´s vehicle's have fibreglass bodies which makes them light, silent urban car."

f1.redbaron: so it's not noisy then?

Fuel:
"...But when the car is used outside urban areas at speeds over 50 km/h, the engines will switch to fuel mode. The engine will be able to use gasoline, gas oil, bio diesel, gas, liquidized gas, ecological fuel, alcohol, etc."

What sort of engine does it have?

Another thing, how many KPa's does this thing normally operate under? What happens if it go kablammo? CNG is combustible, but I think the air here is stored at much higher pressures. The current practice is for ppl to have "a full tank" in their cars. If recharging with builtin compressor, what happens to moisture buildup in the tank? Won't it corrode some parts of the high-pressure circuit?

Edit: answering myself: 4351 psi is the max air pressure

And finally, I wish they hadn't made it so ugly!

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flynfrog
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manchild wrote:That's Guy Negré, guy who made first W engine back in the '60s and first F1 W12 engine that sadly never raced. It was mentioned here in the forum before together with compressed air powered car :wink:

viewtopic.php?t=590&postdays=0&postorde ... 2&start=15
flynfrog wrote:all engines run on compressed air the only differnce is how you get it seems like a waste of time to me how are they planning to compress all of that air electricty from a coal power plant?
Why does it has to be coal powerplant? :shock: What about water, wind, sun and nuclear fusion as source? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4629239.stm

Also, why did you wrote that "all engines run on compressed air"? :?

alsmot all engines steam turbine gasoline run on compresed air from combustion if you use an air tank instead of an explosion you get the same effect.

as for powr plants most power plants around here are coal its cheap effeicnt and actuly pretty clean

water tends to do more harm than good ecologily

wind takes up huge amounts of space and isnt verry realiable and the turbines need constant supervision

i fail to see how using electricy to run a pump fill an tank then realse air into an engine can be more effecint thant charging a battery and driving a motor

a good dc motor is 98% effecint a good battery pack is aroung 60-80 and getting better every day

a 4 stroke engine is around 20% mostly do to interanl losses




i apologize in advance for my poor spelling i just got done with 3 finals and my brain is wore out

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f1.redbaron
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joseff wrote:
On Noise:
"Unlike the majority of traditional cars on the market, MDI´s vehicle's have fibreglass bodies which makes them light, silent urban car."

f1.redbaron: so it's not noisy then?

Based on what I had seen on the Discovery Channel, they are loud. The guy who was driving it seemed to have a bit of a difficulty talking over the noise produced by the air compressors (?). Of course, that is only my impression...

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joseff
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http://www.aircaraccess.com/nealtank.htm

Self-charging tank! :D

lol I hope this is not one of those "200mpg super-secret carburetor" thing

manchild
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But Negre's engine isn't internal combustion engine but only engine using air pressure as only power source. Also, burning coal cusses huge pollution and like all fossil fuels its almost gone.

From some US site
Coal generates 54% of our electricity, and is the single biggest air polluter in the U.S.1 There are many aspects to the damage caused by coal combustion starting with the mining subsidence and acid mine runoff to the disposal of ash that may well have hazardous aspects at the other end of the cycle but in between there is indisputably the production of a huge amount of unhealthy and even deadly air pollution
:arrow: http://www.gasp-pgh.org/action/coalcombustion.html
Last edited by manchild on 01 May 2006, 19:21, edited 1 time in total.

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flynfrog
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joseff wrote:http://www.aircaraccess.com/nealtank.htm

Self-charging tank! :D

lol I hope this is not one of those "200mpg super-secret carburetor" thing
wait i got it we spin one electric motor hook it to a generator then wire the two together :lol:

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joseff
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manchild: No coal is in fact much more abundant than oil. Ironically, burning coal releases very little energy compared to refining Thorium contained in the coal, and making a nuclear reaction out of it. Yep, you got it. Coal is the most abundant nuclear fuel around. You then breed the Thorium to get Uranium out of it. I'm sorry if my physics is out of whack, but it's been a while since I read about these things. In fact, burning coal releases radiactive waste due to Thorium in the ashes.

MDI's engine is unique in that it can run on compressed air (a la steam engines), or you can feed air-fuel mixtures into the cylinder and ignite it.

manchild
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joseff wrote:manchild: No coal is in fact much more abundant than oil.
I know that but as it was mentioned as "green" fuel for powerplants I wrote that it isn't so.

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Ciro Pabón
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manchild wrote:I know that but as it was mentioned as "green" fuel for powerplants I wrote that it isn't so.
You are right: coal hardly qualifies as green. But it is cleaner than other alternatives, like gasoline or hydrogen. This is the reason why we are going to move to diesel: it contaminates but it is cleaner than gasoline. Diesel produces more particles of carbon, wich cause dirt (on your clothes, on the sidewalk) but less nitric oxides, which cause smog (in your lungs).

Hydrogen, as of today, is made by reduction of carbon with sulphuric acid (or something like that, please check, I hate chemistry) with the consequences you can imagine: you use oil or coal (carbon) AND sulphuric or whatever-ic acid. Nice.

Actually, the cleaner energy source is nuclear (let cry whoever wants to cry), even if after Chernobyl "the going got though", but I guess you will kill me if I open a post on a nuclear-engine F1. :D

This is why proposing to extract thorium from coal is going to give you a "tin-foil hat award" at least (and maybe an American attack... :wink:), being a good idea as it is. I haven't dared to talk about the Miller-cycle engine, for example, the quasiturbine already discused in this forum, the Stirling engine or, if we let our imagination fly, the moving walkways of Asimov's "Caves of Steel". I used to joke that transportation engineering has a clear goal, like no other profession: the Enterprise "teletransporter" of fame, but I don't do it anymore: this has contributed to a fame of "trekkie" I do not deserve. :)

There is also the effect of concentration: it seems more difficult to pick up emissions at moving cars than at a central smokestack in a coal plant, as the idea of Washington University's liquid nitrogen car shows.

"Like the old and well known joke goes": what we are seeing here are people that want to position themselves as "greens" but all they want is "green$". This is why market forces are not enough, I guess.

As for the efficiency of the electric engine and the batteries, sometimes is easy to forget the losses in generation and transmission of electricity, which is why the compressed air could compete (as long as the pumps don't use electricity, I presume). My evil colombian mind tells me that this is why the seller carefully phrases this: "you will fill your car at a central station AND IF YOU WISH you will fill the car at your house with an electric pump". I suppose they let for your imagination (and wishes) to figure out the size of your electric bill ... :)

The tanks for the aircar are made of carbon fiber, like the monocoques, so this is what they say when you talk about the kablaam mentioned by joseff. The GM flywheel car was aborted when one technician died during research and several flywheel cases exploded, so I do not know if they took this time this issue more seriously. I would say that a couple of glasses of "Tank-eray" gin are more dangerous than one of these tanks, if we believe statistics.

Do not swallow the talk of the seller, of course: the lesson here is to consider the entire chain, from creation to disposal, like they teach you at systems engineering. It is somethin' zen-like: feel the system, be the system. :roll:

Normally there are no magic bullets in engineering. The surefire way of today is the obsolete technique of tomorrow and every time you tighten a bolt, another gasket, far away, moves.

Be the gasket. :D

But do not forget that in the real world, you have the additional problem that your opponents are normally busy kicking all the bolts and gaskets in your machine...
Ciro