Mercedes GP 2011

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Tyler
Tyler
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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I agree with what Fil is saying.
I think that a lot of people are being incredibly and unreasonably harsh on Mercedes.
Even in Merc did buy the winning team from 09 by the time they had bought the team the staff had been cut drastically so it's not really fair to even say they bought the same team that won in 09 - it's a cut of almost 50 percent - that's massive and really undoes what was achieved up to that point. We'll never know if Brawn had continued as it was, if they would have won or done well in 2010 or if it was just a one of thanks to the 09 rules but that's irrelevant after such huge cuts.
Merc effectively bought a new team, not the established world championship winning team as a lot would like to have us believe.
I think Merc's mistake was to pin all their hopes on a miracle from Brawn and Schumacher, thinking that with these 2 on board they could miraculously challenge the top teams with much fewer resources at their disposal.Of course the public also had high hopes of wins from the go.
In reality these things take time, especially with the team and resources having to be built up again - you don't simply stick an add in the paper and automatically have a few hundred experts, the best in their field, at your door the next morning.
I think that because of their unrealistic belief in Brawn and Schumacher, Merc took too long in getting the ball rolling. They have reacted now, and the appointment of Bell as well as the recent recruitment drive to bring them closer to the top teams is definitely a positive step but it's going to take time for this to come to fruition.
We're talking years, not weeks or months.
Still I don't think they've done badly up to this point. Fourth in the standings at this early stage of the game is hardly a failure, considering how much longer Red Bull, Ferrari and McLaren have been established and considering the difference in resources.
In fact fourth at this stage is pretty damn amazing in my opinion!
We really need to give them about three to five years more to judge them fairly, which is frustrating but Rome wasn't built in a day.
I have every faith Mercedes will get there, they have succeeded in every other area of Motorsport, they have a proud tradition and I am positive they will succeed in Formula One.
I think they realize this and are prepared to give it time - they won't pull out now, it would be hugely embarrassing and damaging to them.
A lot of the frustration comes from Schumacher fans (like myself), dissapointed to see him where he is but honestly he should have known better.
It took five years at Ferrari to win the WDC.
Granted he had wins before this but then Ferrari didn't see a change of ownership and huge cuts and changes like Merc did.
Unfortunately I think he'll be gone by the time Merc is on top.
As for Rosberg, I feel he's a hugely underrated driver - I think he's right up there with the best - he just needs a better car to prove it.
Unless he gets an offer from Red Bull, when Webber goes (which I think would be an incredibly clever but unlikely move) or Ferrari or McLaren which also doesn't seem likely at this point, I think he should stick it out with Merc. Unlike Schumi he is still young and can afford to wait. His patience may just be rewarded by being the top dog at a winning team in a few years.

Tyler
Tyler
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Joined: 06 Jul 2011, 18:50

Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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Oh yes and I just wanted to add that all this talk of McLaren getting sub standard engines, while Merc keep the best for themselves is not realistic.
I don't think that Merc would jeopardize their name and credibility as well as their strong and lengthy relationship with McLaren by doing this.
The McLaren still has the Merc badge on it and it's a sense of pride when any Mercedes engine wins, be it McLaren or Mercedes-GP.
At least when their works team is 'only' fourth they have the advantage of a Mercedes badged car fighting for wins.
I don't believe they'd want to hamper McLaren in any way.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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Tyler wrote:Oh yes and I just wanted to add that all this talk of McLaren getting sub standard engines, while Merc keep the best for themselves is not realistic.
I don't think that Merc would jeopardize their name and credibility as well as their strong and lengthy relationship with McLaren by doing this.
The McLaren still has the Merc badge on it and it's a sense of pride when any Mercedes engine wins, be it McLaren or Mercedes-GP.
At least when their works team is 'only' fourth they have the advantage of a Mercedes badged car fighting for wins.
I don't believe they'd want to hamper McLaren in any way.


Agreed 100 percent with all of your post.
More could have been done.
David Purley

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dren
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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I have to agree with all of that. Good post.
Honda!

munudeges
munudeges
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Joined: 10 Jun 2011, 17:08

Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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Tyler wrote:Oh yes and I just wanted to add that all this talk of McLaren getting sub standard engines, while Merc keep the best for themselves is not realistic.
Why not? It's obviously realistic. Do you think Sauber or Torro Rosso gets the same level of support as the Ferrari team?
I don't think that Merc would jeopardize their name and credibility as well as their strong and lengthy relationship with McLaren by doing this.
Why not? They have a Formula 1 team with MHPE people in key positions that needs to start moving forwards and winning to be justifiable.
The McLaren still has the Merc badge on it and it's a sense of pride when any Mercedes engine wins, be it McLaren or Mercedes-GP.
So not giving their own Formula 1 team number 1 support is based on nothing more than........a sense of provide?

Yep, that makes sense!

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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When I initially posed that question, I said, if Merc start winning. Obviously now they won't. Otherwise the Merc engine wouldn't be a race winning engine in the year. However how about when they start winning and competing with McLaren? I mean, take munudeges' example. it's a common belief that Ferrari give second rate engines to Toro Rosso/Sauber
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Richard
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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As Helmut Marko said ... “We stand to learn nothing from Toro Rosso’s customer engines, which – anyway – are not on the same level as the real Ferrari engines.”

http://www.yallaf1.com/2011/01/26/marko ... r-engines/

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raymondu999
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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Well he wasn't the only one who said that. There are more. However, I'm very interested. Would these engines still have more peak power than Renault? IIRC their first year, the Ferrari contract was tied to RBR rather than STR
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dren
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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I am sure it is stated in the contract what kind of engine they are getting. I don't think there is any sneaky behind doors --- going on.
Honda!

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Donuts
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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Hmm... did'nt all these rumour start last year when Sauber had to use more than eight engines(Peter Sauber made some remarks when two-three races in a row ended with engine failure). I think this is ridiculous, why would Ferrari risk their reputation, especially when neither Sauber or Toro Rosso were competitive.
The speed of Ayrton Senna.
The mind of Alain Prost.
The dedication of Michael Schumacher.
The determination of Alex Zanardi.

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mep
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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In case of Sauber I am convinced that they don't get the top engines of Ferrari. Sauber is using them for very very long time now and there have been times where engine development was still allowed. During that time it was known that they didn’t had the latest evolution. Not just that alone they also had to race for Ferrari couple times noticeable when they got lapped by Ferrari or their competitors. Sometimes during the race Jean Todt walked to the Sauber commando stand had some nice talk and walked back.

Actually I enjoyed watching actions like that. It was more a reflection of real life. Today everybody would cry because of some illusive sportsmanship trash talk.
Well that what you get when you ban tobacco commercials and replace them with banks and insurances.

marcush.
marcush.
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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ask yourself:
You got 3 wonderful cars in your garage ,but your wife has told you to sell two of them as it´s useless junk and why would you need three identical ones.
No problem there ,you can retain one of them and a horde of enthusiasts is waiting years already for them being for sale.
You have one with very low mileage everything is just a tad better than on the other cars it´s really perfect,and the other ones have been used for a demonstaration by some lunatic and the other one fell from the transporter on delivery but could be repaired at the factory and you would not see a problem even on close inspection.
The day of sale is nearing .What you guys think are the two cars that will go?it´s simple and understandable.These engines are not sold off the shelf as mass productions .I could imagine that engine assembly for Mercedes GP is not even by the same guys .

Again it´s academic ,as mercedes and Mclaren may or may not face different parasitic losses in their system,different grease in the cV joints ,different driveshaft angulation ,offset gearbox bearing centrelines to optimise for alignment under load,bearing preloads,inventive step gears to create shorter wheelbases ,Double radiators to cook the engines , you name it ..there is a lot more to lose in the periphery and installed in the system than those 50 hp I could imagine.

coming back to harshness:
Mercedes GP -Haug,Brawn,Zetsche have announced they are coming into Formula 1 to win titles in a more efficient ways and they clearly went into it claiming the outfit was capable to do so in its state as it was sold by Brawn.
It was clearly their choice to wave the flag as they did.They could have easily
stated :oh,by the way BrawnGP was basically the core of an ex works outfit and it will take 3+ years to come back to being able to win championships but it´s a cheap deal and we will grab it and build on it ...
But then maybe Rosberg and Schumacher would not have taken the bait ... :wtf: I more and more get the impression the action by Brawn and to a degree Haug was deliberate and well thought out and some guys inside get a bit angry now as reality is back.Rosberg clearly could have gone elsewhere and Schumacher could have enjoyed his retirement ....
Last edited by marcush. on 18 Aug 2011, 00:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Morteza
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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marcush. wrote: coming back to harshness:
Mercedes GP -Haug,Brawn,Zetsche have announced they are coming into Formula 1 to win titles in a more efficient ways and they clearly went into it claiming the outfit was capable to do so in it`s state as it was sold by Brawn.
It was clearly their choice to wave the flag as they did.They could have easily
stated :oh ,by the way BrawnGP was basically the core of an ex works outfit and it will take 3+ years to come back to being able to win championships ,but it´s a cheap deal and we will grab it and build on it ...
But then maybe Rosberg and Schumacher would not have takenb the bait ... :wtf: I more and more get the impression the action by Brawn and to a degree Haug was deliberate and well thought out and some guys inside get a bit angry now as reality is back.Rosberg clearly could have gone elsewhere and Schumacher could have enjoyed his retirement ....
+1 Marcus.
Were they fooling themselves? Now they say it's just a matter of time to achieve the results. It took RB x years, but for us it takes y years! Why would Schumacher come out of his retirement and join Mercedes GP? Was it like this? :
Ross : Michael, I have the championship winning team now. Would you like another championship under your belt? Come and join us
Norbert : Ross is right, Michael. We have an amazing team and we have won both championships last year.
What would tempt Schumacher to come back to F1? It was another championship, not just racing for fun. He wouldn't like to make a fool of himself, would he? I think it is the same case with Rosberg as well.
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

marcush.
marcush.
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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I allow myself to get carried away when it comes to Formula 1 .I really WANTED to believe Schumacher would come back with a bang and show those young farts and drive that Mercedes way above its weight.
But that´s my enthusiasm that carried me away .would someone like Ross Brawn allow himself to be that unrealistic in judging the state of affairs? He must have known how badly they struggled to keep BGP001 competitive after being dominant at the start of the season with a hushhush conversion to Mercpower..So it must have been very clearly visible to the team that it had lost almost everything on their way to the first race in 2009...

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Fil
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Joined: 15 Jan 2007, 14:54
Location: Melbourne, Aus.

Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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marcush. wrote:Mercedes GP -Haug,Brawn,Zetsche have announced they are coming into Formula 1 to win titles in a more efficient ways and they clearly went into it claiming the outfit was capable to do so in its state as it was sold by Brawn.
It was clearly their choice to wave the flag as they did.

I more and more get the impression the action by Brawn and to a degree Haug was deliberate and well thought out and some guys inside get a bit angry now as reality is back.
marcush. wrote:would someone like Ross Brawn allow himself to be that unrealistic in judging the state of affairs? He must have known how badly they struggled to keep BGP001 competitive after being dominant at the start of the season with a hushhush conversion to Mercpower..So it must have been very clearly visible to the team that it had lost almost everything on their way to the first race in 2009...
Nailed it!

Remember, in 2009 Ross Brawn & Nick Fry's primary goal was to find a buyer for ex-Honda F1 that they picked up for a pound.
Seems like they played on the bruised egos of Haug & Mercedes after their failed power struggle at McLaren. Magnify that with WCC/WDC success, and a first-mover on the RRA, Brawn GP was sold as a certain success.

That Rosberg & Schumacher were sucked in as well, shows just how good a pitch the Brawn team put together!

Haug is only now realising what a hollow sales pitch Brawn & Fry sold him. And it's left to him to handle the excuses to the press & the Merc board..
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