Mercedes GP 2011

[munudeges]

You are wrong. At least in 2000 Brawn was technical director and responded directly to Jean Todt while Byrne was head of what was called "Vehicle project" department that was responding to Brawn. Engine department was independent from Brawn and responded directly to Todt.

No, I'm afraid not. Ross Brawn's title was 'Technical Director' in name only. When Ferrari needed to set up a design department in Maranello in 1997 it was Byrne they called when he was away and out of contact in Thailand. Unfortunately, what a person's job title is and what they actually do are two very different things and it was clear that when Byrne took a back seat at Ferrari things went pear-shaped - even with Brawn still as 'Technical Director'.

[Hemsy]

The same can be said for Adrian Newey that it was Prodomou that did the real work.

No. Newey has a track-record of being hands-on with the car where Bell doesn't. The real ideas have always come from other people where that just isn't the case with Newey. Cars developed under him have always had pretty clear philosophies.

Regardless of when Newey's cars fall behind, they always have a track record of coming good even when the regulations have stabilised. No one else has that kind of track record. As for McLaren winning a championship when he left, that car had years of Newey's aerodynamic thinking at McLaren left in it with things like the anteater nose that came back in 2006. I doubt whether those left at McLaren really understood how that car actually worked.

It's always very clear where the ideas have actually come from.

Any proof to back your claims regarding Bell?

[munudeges]

You look at what he's actually done and the correlation of success at teams he's been at, especially when other key personnel have left.

Trying to claim that Newey does not have that correlation with success, regardless of other personnel, is certainly an assertion I'd like to see backed up.

[timbo]

No, I'm afraid not. Ross Brawn's title was 'Technical Director' in name only. When Ferrari needed to set up a design department in Maranello in 1997 it was Byrne they called when he was away and out of contact in Thailand. Unfortunately, what a person's job title is and what they actually do are two very different things and it was clear that when Byrne took a back seat at Ferrari things went pear-shaped - even with Brawn still as 'Technical Director'.

Those are only assumptions. Unless you worked there you don't have first hand experience in this.
The discussion started because xpensive questioned validity of current Ferrari organization, while it is clear that it's not much different than what was used during 00's. Apparently Fry takes what was Brawn's role and Tombazis probably in Byrne's position.

[timbo]

You look at what he's actually done and the correlation of success at teams he's been at, especially when other key personnel have left.

Trying to claim that Newey does not have that correlation with success, regardless of other personnel, is certainly an assertion I'd like to see backed up.

Same correlation can be seen with Brawn.

[Hemsy]

You look at what he's actually done and the correlation of success at teams he's been at, especially when other key personnel have left.

Trying to claim that Newey does not have that correlation with success, regardless of other personnel, is certainly an assertion I'd like to see backed up.

Same correlation can be seen with Brawn.

Exactly and yet Brawn is fairing miserable at Merc. Which shows that without a capable technical team, no one is immune to failure & that a one man show does not exist, not even in the case of Newey.

[raymondu999]

Continuing with the orchestra analogy, I view Newey as kind of the master pianist as well as a conductor. Bell... I really have no idea. All I remember is Bell was once Gascoyne's second hand man

[xpensive]

You look at what he's actually done and the correlation of success at teams he's been at, especially when other key personnel have left.

Trying to claim that Newey does not have that correlation with success, regardless of other personnel, is certainly an assertion I'd like to see backed up.

Same correlation can be seen with Brawn.

Exactly and yet Brawn is fairing miserable at Merc. Which shows that without a capable technical team, no one is immune to failure & that a one man show does not exist, not even in the case of Newey.

To compare Ross Brawn with Newey, Byrne, Bell or Gascoyne is grossly unfair to the former, when he's not an engineer.

In particular not a design-engineer, which makes him xtremely dependent on having someone like Rory Byrne around.

Bob Bell might work, I really have no idea, but MGP would be far better off with Mike Gascoyne I'm certain.

[raymondu999]

Of course a 1-man show doesn't exist in F1. But whatever the size, Newey is a damn good addition to your team

[marcush.]

It´s a well known fact that the geniuses have a team of warriors around them and changing the team these will follow directly or soon -or if they think they have
learned enough go and try to carve their own niche and build something around themselves.
Barnard (Jenkins Coughlan),Dr.Harvey Postlethwaite (Gascoyne),Brunner (Frison),
Gascoyne (Mark Smith, marianne Hinsen ),Newey (Prodromou Newey ,Willis)etc etc

Newey is a damn good addition to a team -well said.

I´m not even sure if he ever did it all..but who cares.

I´d think x is spot on there .Brawn is not an engineer .Most of the time he just has to rely on the expertise of the teammembers and his gut feeling ,surely hoed over the years of experience BUT looking at new things by reverring to the past is maybe not very helpful in judging the worth of innovations.

So my idea is Newey would build the ultimate car -if it were ever ready to build or finish and Brawn could build it but it would be slower than a Virgin VR01

[timbo]

In particular not a design-engineer, which makes him xtremely dependent on having someone like Rory Byrne around.

Sorry, but was Byrne around when they built what became BGP001?
And how many years did it take for Newey to build RB5?

[xpensive]

Which 001, they build three different ones, in case MrM wasn't able to prevent the cheating chassis to be declared illegal?

How very true marcush, an even better xample is Colin Chapman, who needed Peter Wright, Tony Rudd and Martin Ogilvie to design the Lotus 79. Before that he had Maurice Phillippe and Ralph Bellamy for the Lotus 49 to 76 but we rarely hear their names, do we?

[marcush.]

In particular not a design-engineer, which makes him xtremely dependent on having someone like Rory Byrne around.

Sorry, but was Byrne around when they built what became BGP001?
And how many years did it take for Newey to build RB5?

The TD at Honda was Jörg Zander ,his work and responsibility .Zander fell out with Brawn over the decision which direction to take early in 2009.

Newey joined the bulls 2006 ?

As for the TD thing ...You need a charismatic guy with a vision ,that´s my view of it .Someone you can accept as the one doing the final calls BECAUSE you believe in or better you KNOW his ability to guide the team towards the best possible product.
Usually the boss is the boss for whatever reason ..but somehow I think in F1 theTD needs to be your hero in a ways not just another chap who is in it for 50 years and has not come up with a useful remark for the whole time you are working for him.

[xpensive]

...
As for the TD thing ...You need a charismatic guy with a vision, that´s my view of it. Someone you can accept as the one doing the final calls BECAUSE you believe in or better you KNOW his ability to guide the team towards the best possible product.
Usually the boss is the boss for whatever reason, but somehow I think in F1 the TD needs to be your hero in a way, not just another chap who is in it for 50 years and has not come up with a useful remark for the whole time you are working for him.

My sentimens as well, with the addition that in a perfect world, the F1-TD should also be hands-on enough to get himself reasonably involved in most technical details.

Ooops...we are perhaps going way OT here, way OT?

[timbo]

So, is it that you somehow propose that Brawn suffered brainfade and immersed himself in the area he is incapable for?