McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

[ringo]

It´s not ok to doubt the ability of Oatley and Lowes team not being able to come up with something on a par or even beetter than an evolution of a horse that has been run for three years already.
Logic would say there is a point when the concept you are refining is leveling out and the return for each hour spoent is minimal.
On the other hand a fundamentally flawed car can be improved big time -by putting the areas right that were wrong.

The interesting bit here is :MP4-26 is a very different animal to the RB7 not sharing much in concept and achieving laptime and elapsed time in the race very differently.
Who knows if ultimately the Mclaren concept has more scope for development and RB7 hits a brickwall -or as jet mentioned has reached the end of the road of development? Sure Mclaren have gained a LOT on RedBull recently and we have not seen RedBull having answers to attach to the car .As predicted the KERS lonely Cowboy solution of RB technology will not only bite them now when Mclaren and Ferrari have their machines on full song it will hurt again next year as they lack the strength in depth to master the KERS as needed.

It seems it has more scope but it doesn't.
The redbull shape is the optimum. What is helping Mclaren is the fact that they have a target to aim at. That is what is bringing their car closer.
They have the resources which redbull don't have, and a stronger research and testing regime.
If redbull had the same capabilities and tyre know how, they'd still be 1s a lap up on everyone.

There is nothing visually progressive with the 26, all of the progress has been with mappings and tyre knowledge. All of that is supported by their depth of testing and research, which Redbull don't have the luxury of.

They are muscling through with money and experience. It will be funny to see who will be hard headed enough not to carbon copy the redbull next year. I'm tired of all the preaching. The teams just don't learn, and they keep getting owned by redbull year in year out.

When the season is done, i'll show why the redbull chassis is superior. I just don't want to spoil it for everybody and my car thread.

[hardingfv32]

Are the teams under budget constants? Why would McLaren have more depth of testing and research?

Brian

[raymondu999]

Well a lot of the lap time gain McL has made so far, is clearly coming from their use of the EBD methinks. Not so much in the actual EBD mapping, but the philosophy with which they use it (as an air skirt now to allow rake, rather than directly energizing the airflow).

The real question is if we were to suddenly have Silverstone-spec EBD regs again, how would they fare? Or worse yet, ironically Monza might prove the closest to that. The EBD when used in an aggressive map would mean the engine outputs less power, would it not? So if that is the case, in Monza we'll see if they have truly solved their issues. Otherwise, they'll be damned if they do and damned if they don't. They could choose to run the EBD and maintain their stability, but be down on power, or be up on power, but be skittish at the rear.

I wonder what will happen with the rear wing of the cars at Monza though - I'm thinking that all teams will converge on the same flap size, with the main plane almost horizontal in the airflow, so that you have two flat planes when the DRS is on. Otherwise you'd be sacrificing too much DRS in qualli.

[beelsebob]

Well a lot of the lap time gain McL has made so far, is clearly coming from their use of the EBD methinks. Not so much in the actual EBD mapping, but the philosophy with which they use it (as an air skirt now to allow rake, rather than directly energizing the airflow).

The real question is if we were to suddenly have Silverstone-spec EBD regs again, how would they fare? Or worse yet, ironically Monza might prove the closest to that. The EBD when used in an aggressive map would mean the engine outputs less power, would it not? So if that is the case, in Monza we'll see if they have truly solved their issues. Otherwise, they'll be damned if they do and damned if they don't. They could choose to run the EBD and maintain their stability, but be down on power, or be up on power, but be skittish at the rear.

I wonder what will happen with the rear wing of the cars at Monza though - I'm thinking that all teams will converge on the same flap size, with the main plane almost horizontal in the airflow, so that you have two flat planes when the DRS is on. Otherwise you'd be sacrificing too much DRS in qualli.

I'm not sure where you're getting the correlation between aggressive engine map and lower peak power output. The complex engine maps are engineering what happens when the engine is not producing peak power.

[raymondu999]

I'm talking of the ignition overrun; i.e. hot/cold blowing. I must admit I don't have any direct technical source for that; but I read it just yesterday. Either in Racecar Engineering, Autosport (in the Mark Hughes/Gary Anderson section), or F1 Racing's Pat Symonds section. Or it could be on Autosport Plus. I do apologize; I don't remember right now. I'll update you again if and when I find the article again.

[MIKEY_!]

Makes sense that hot blowing might reduce engine power in the long term because of overheating etc. The effect would likely be slight though and I think the teams would be on top of this one.

[raymondu999]

The article I read (though I can't for the life of me find it now) implied distinctly that the actual hot-blowing map would decrease the power output, rather than the decreased power being a function of overheating and reliability.

[MIKEY_!]

Hmmm. I'll have a look around as well.

[raymondu999]

Now that I think about it again, I think I might have heard it in a Free Practice session (which I've been re-watching during the August break. I think it might have been Nurburgring FP2 as there was Sam Michael there. Will re-watch and post my findings.

[Fil]

Mr Allen has mentioned that point on his preview of Spa.

Another interesting factor will be the effect of the blown diffusers as they take away horsepower from the engine, which is vital for Spa.

Source: JA on F1 (under sub-heading "Likely tyre performance and other considerations")

[raymondu999]

Ah! Yes, that's the one then. Cheers mate, thanks for helping me find it. SO I guess that means it WASN'T Sam Michael on Nurburgring FP2

According to a comments poster on James Allen's website,

Smaller exhaust pipe exits are used to increase the exhaust velocity. More velocity = more downforce… but smaller exit = more restriction = less power.

It’s a balance you have to play… determining how much power you are willing to give up for downforce

and he also wrote:

I believe it is due to having to push the exhaust through a “nozzle”, used to accelerate the exhaust flow to increase the speed of the exhaust as it leaves the pipe.

[raymondu999]

It seems it has more scope but it doesn't.
The redbull shape is the optimum. What is helping Mclaren is the fact that they have a target to aim at. That is what is bringing their car closer.
They have the resources which redbull don't have, and a stronger research and testing regime.
If redbull had the same capabilities and tyre know how, they'd still be 1s a lap up on everyone.

There is nothing visually progressive with the 26, all of the progress has been with mappings and tyre knowledge. All of that is supported by their depth of testing and research, which Redbull don't have the luxury of.

They are muscling through with money and experience. It will be funny to see who will be hard headed enough not to carbon copy the redbull next year. I'm tired of all the preaching. The teams just don't learn, and they keep getting owned by redbull year in year out.

When the season is done, i'll show why the redbull chassis is superior. I just don't want to spoil it for everybody and my car thread.

Why do you say it has less scope? It's a design that has 1 year's worth of R&D, while Newey's has 3; and it's matching the Newey design now.

[marcush.]

Ringos point is ,as far as I understand : Mclaren has found a ways of better understanding the Pirelli tyres and their Development team is crankingf out working bits quicker than RedBull .
This explains their ability to close the gap during the season.

The undelying message is :RedBull has a better design when Mclaren does get more out of what they have.

A bold statement and I´m looking forward to him elaborating on this after season closing.

[xpensive]

...
The redbull shape is the optimum.
...

Good Lord, is this still a Technical forum?

[raymondu999]

Ringos point is ,as far as I understand : Mclaren has found a ways of better understanding the Pirelli tyres and their Development team is crankingf out working bits quicker than RedBull .
This explains their ability to close the gap during the season.

The undelying message is :RedBull has a better design when Mclaren does get more out of what they have.

A bold statement and I´m looking forward to him elaborating on this after season closing.

Ah! Got it.

...
The redbull shape is the optimum.
...

Good Lord, is this still a Technical forum?

I thought optimum was still a technical term