Mercedes GP 2011

[dren]

So did the car hit the actual initial design goals? If it did, then the engineers are not to blame. Now that Bell is there, I hope to see a better car next year. One that handles well and reacts well to upgrades, much like the Ferrari of the past two years.

No, I don't think they saw the wheelbase issue or fuel tank issue as an issue when they were designing the car. On paper, they believed the standard size diffuser would work better on a SWB car and as long as everything else is centrally located that it would work. On paper I suppose this makes enough sense, but the reality is they have a twitchy car which can be setup for qualifying or racing but never both.

I imagine Bell started on W03 months ago because the issues with W02 were immediately apparent. I have a feeling Haug was sandbagging the other day when he said MB won't be ready any time soon. Just my opinion, but I believe they are hiding something good. We shall see right? Can't hurt to be optimistic!

I understand the idea behind the SWB and diffuser but I don't know if the design goals were actually met. Did the car produce the anticipated levels of DF? The team seemed genuinely excited about the car until testing started, so maybe something didn't quite work out the way it was intended to.

As for Haug sandbagging, I don't think he was. I think the realization has kicked in that it will take more than 3 years to create a top tier team.

[raymondu999]

I don't agree; in both cases Alonso/Vettel were only just about had their front wings ahead of Rosbergs front wing; so not much of that would have been the DRS effect

[marcush.]

In my book BAR you are dreaming about how useless BAR Honda really was :

Yes they started crap in1999 with zero points
but :
11th in 1999/0points
5th in 2000 /20points
6th in 2001/17points
8th in 2002/7points
5th in 2003/26
2nd in 2004 /119
6th in 2005 /38
4th in 2006/86
8th in 2007/6
9th in 2008/14
1st in 2009/
4th in 2010/

is not the equivalent of a loser team .ZThey weer one time constructors champions ,once second ,2 times forth ,2 times fifth and 2 times sixth...

compare this to toyota who:
never won a race
never got better than 4th in constructors

compare this to BMW/sauber

who also won 1 GP as constructor
equalled Honda with 2nd in the constructors once
bettered Honda with one 3rd in constructors
had one 4th constructors as sauber
had 2 5th
It took sauber 9 years to gain a 4th place in constructors
sure in a shorter timespan .

In the end itis totally unfair to say the old BAR honda was junk .They were actually a decent team ...after that first year with a car that should have got a indycar or what..

[nacho]

The 1999 BAR was actually a pretty fast car but the most unreliable car I can remember.

[PNSD]

The 1999 BAR was actually a pretty fast car but the most unreliable car I can remember.

Very much so!

Im pretty sure Jacques put it top 10 more often than not in qualifying. I guess that was still when he was at his best, but for the first car a team ever produces to be a consistent top 10 (around!) qualifier then that's fantastic.

Pollock was an ass about the whole thing, but for the shear speed of the car first two BAR's you have to say they performed better than any other new team since Jordan when it was arguably easier to join F1 and be mid field.

[dren]

Yeah, look at the three newest teams now. Not one of them has come anywhere close to making Q3. Lotus makes Q2 on a rare occasion. With the people Lotus has, you would expect them to be more of a midfield contender. Maybe next year? Although BAR certainly had tons of money thrown its way compared to the new teams now.

[wunderkind]

Just wildly speculating a bit on what we might xpect from the W03 design-wise, what if MGP brought Bob Bell aboard in order to complete the thinking around FEE and combine it with an even shorter wheelbase, not to lose the rear-tyre pre-heating effect?

Didn't Brawn say a few days ago that the W03 will have a longer wheelbase than the W02? I think the short-wheelbase concept can only be pursued further if the designers can design a front-end with huge downforce.

I think the FEE concept is finished. The risk of overheating and causing serious damage a la Heidfeld in Hungary is just too great. Also packaging the KERS in the current scheme of things (V8 engine and FEE) is just a tad too much to comtemplate for most teams.

I also question the effectiveness of the FEE. Remember in Canada, the Renault's FEE was spewing out pulsating exhaust gases onto the track instead of blowing the air streams towards the diffuser? I think Renault deserved points in Canada for helping to dry the trach surface.

[xpensive]

I beg to differ boy wonder, I think that if you can make the wheel-base short enough, the FEE will come into its own right and
heat up the air beneath the car, while front-end grip will go to the sky as a result, which will suit MS like a glove next year!

[wunderkind]

I doubt they can make the wheelbase any shorter as the centre of gravity issue becomes even more pronunced, not be mention high speed stability issues. Also, to make the wheelbase shorter, Mercedes would have to find ways to somehow make the radiators and other components even smaller. Making smaller radiators means running the engine hotter and I don't think it's possible given how mature the current V8 engine formula is.

There is just not enough scope for development and big breakthroughs. I think Bob Bell's W03 will be an orthodox machine with few or no surprises.

But when the turbo V6 engine comes along, cars will no doubt become shorter and Mercedes may have the upperhand with all the data accumulated in 2011.

[xpensive]

I doubt they can make the wheelbase any shorter as the centre of gravity issue becomes even more pronunced, not be mention high speed stability issues. Also, to make the wheelbase shorter, Mercedes would have to find ways to somehow make the radiators and other components even smaller. Making smaller radiators means running the engine hotter and I don't think it's possible given how mature the current V8 engine formula is.
...

No problems with that, when I'm sure that Bell and his crew is looking at xtending the fueltank forward along the cock-pit sides,
which will be very good for the CoG in everywhich way, while the smaller radiators can easily be compensated with larger intakes.

[marcush.]

unfortunatelly we got a set of rules preventing this...
-tank is not allowed to extend forward of some point of the drivers back-
-exhaust exits ,I think the exhaust exit positions will be mandatory-periscope type-?

[xpensive]

unfortunatelly we got a set of rules preventing this...
-tank is not allowed to extend forward of some point of the drivers back-
-exhaust exits ,I think the exhaust exit positions will be mandatory-periscope type-?

Xtending the tank rearwards, along the sides of the engine, will work as well, perhaps even better as said xtentions could help stiffening the engine.

[wunderkind]

Xtending the tank rearwards, along the sides of the engine, will work as well, perhaps even better as said xtentions could help stiffening the engine.

I'm not sure as that would require the radiators to be tilted and also having the turbochargers right next to the radiators. If I were looking at maximising the aero performance, the first thing I'd look at is how to make the sidepods narrower to exploit smaller dimensions of the turbo V6 engine.

No need to stiffen the V6 engine as it would be a little nugget.

Also, marcush is right. They will have to run periscope exhausts.

[marcush.]

X-also not allowed... tank is not allowed to extend beyond the front mounting face of the engine...
The width is also closely monitored so you only got the height and length to play with.
And as I understand not all teams use up the allowed width .

[xpensive]

So marcush, when I understand that the driver's feet are not allowed to xtend forward of the front wheel's centerline, what remains is to have MS sitting in a more upright position to allow for a longer tank. This should also help him with his vision at overtaking.