Starts (why Mark Webber is losing out)

[Donuts]

The purpose of this thread is to get an exact description of the start and to undertstand how much influence the driver has on the start.

How can Mark Webber be that bad?

I for one thought that most parameters were established by the engineers, the driver only has to rev up and when the time comes, put in the first gear. Voilá!

Can somebody who knows(not "I think so") or has the time to find out the drivers start procedure step by step(starting with warming up the tyres on the out lap). Maybe we can find a video of a start with the speed, rev, brake and gear display. We can continue discussing the different parameters(drivetrain, tyres an so on...) from an engineering point of view.

Maybe we'll get to the bottom of why Mark Webber is starting so much worse than Sebastian Vettel allthough they are in similiar cars...

[marcush.]

The start proceedure is already starting on the way into the grid and the day /before when drivers make a practise start -sampling grip values -to allow the engineers to adjust parameters for the proper race start .
So it all starts with a Std baseline practise start when the driver leaves the pit lane.
Only in one race this is going to represent the true value of grip :Monaco -as there the guys will practise starts on the start finish straight.

The first time you will be able to see if things are ok is at the start of the formation lap .But there you are in a dilemma:
on one hand you will want to lay rubber (spinning the wheels)to improve grip and on the other you would wantr to see if your proceedure is right .
In the first case you are altering the grip level of the track in your starting box already....
So really the parameters here are not constant and not really something you got a handle on ..track temp ,track/tyre interaction .
And that´s before you even can adjust car settings.
This is about feel! Also a big issue is: You will have a swarm or Wasps in the background so your ears will not help you judging engine speed ....

[raymondu999]

Also nowadays I think the start systems are incredibly sensitive and fickle. Too little, and you'll bog down. Too much and you'll be spinning wheels.

[marcush.]

just think about the influence of tyre grip -pressure buildup in formation lap ,surface temp due to burnoouts performed into the grid and time from standstill to light going out...

[Richard]

the driver only has to rev up and when the time comes, put in the first gear.

The drivers use a manual clutch, brake pedal and accelerator pedal.

[marcush.]

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules ... ions/6843/

this is the FIA regulation -the timeline till the actual getaway-

So the cars have left the pits and drive one reconnaissance lap into the grid .They are allowed to do more laps but have to use the pitlane to start their next lap .
three minutes before the start the tyres must be on the car
one minute to go the engine has to be started and all helpers have to leave the grid this acitivity has to be completed with 15seconds to go till the green light which signals the start of the formation lap.

At this point the driver must really look for reference points for his Grid slot to be able to find the ideal position to start the race.Sitting so low in the car you cannot see what is directly in front of the car .So it will not be possible to see the markers on the track!

No real race start is allowed when leaving the grid slot for the formation lap

[Donuts]

the driver only has to rev up and when the time comes, put in the first gear.

The drivers use a manual clutch, brake pedal and accelerator pedal.

Thanks, now I know something(about the clutch) I did'nt know before(I suspected this since there is an anti-stall).

Where is the clutch located(from what I know, there are only brake & trhottle pedals)?

This means it's all up to the drivers to "feel" the grip, but he has some input of optimum revs based on friction level, temperaure of track e.t.c. from engineer?! Then there's ofcourse the issue of setting the clutch...

[raymondu999]

They rev up; usually to about 13k rpm on the starting grid. They have two clutch levers, below their upshift/downhshift levers. They pull one back in to a point that their engineer has already told them to, and of course their wheels will already have been set to clutch mode whatever and mix whatever; all the correct settings for the start. They pull the other clutch back fully.

This is operating one clutch; not two. The clutch will go with the "deeper" control. i.e. if one is pulled back 50% and the other 75%, the clutch will be at 75%.

Then when the lights go out, the drivers release the fully-pulled-back clutch lever so that their clutch snaps to the other clutch at the correct state.

[thatnoone]

why him & not vettel?

[raymondu999]

Huh? Donuts' point is that Mark is consistently having worse starts than Vettel; and this thread is to discuss why

[dren]

I think it has to come down to operator error. He doesn't spin out, he bogs the engine down.

[Richard]

Have a read of these threads ...

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8910

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9835

[raymondu999]

Cheers richard but I think Donuts isn't looking for an explanation of start procedure. Rather, he's trying to find out what is the key difference between Vettel and Webber's starts

[Tozza Mazza]

Marko's got his spanner out!

Sorry.

[Richard]

I agree, Webber seems to get bogged down, either his revs are too low or his clutch hand is too heavy, or a bit of both. The on board footage from Belgium definitely shows a lurch, then nearly stops, then launches properly.

The clutch paddles have to be linear from 0 to 100% so the drivers try to find the optimum biting point at the start of the formation lap, then the engineers look at the data and tell them to do a bit more or less as the go around to the start. Then its down to how sensitive your fingers are in setting the biting point and releasing at the optimum rate to maximise acceleration.

The alternative bad start is to spin the wheels up too much, but that didn't happen in Belgium.