Italian GP 2011 - Autodromo Nazionale Monza

[raymondu999]

Very true, Hampus. However Monza is the place where engine makes the most difference (out of all the tracks)

[HampusA]

Touché

Yes, i guess if there would be one track that would favour a stronger engine then it have to be Monza.
I still think aero effeciency will play a bigger role then engine at Monza due to DRS etc.
I think we are in for a real treat this year

[raymondu999]

Yes; I think especially this year with the two very different notions of "qualifying pace" and "race pace" being very different; it will serve us up a thriller.

[Gerhard Berger]

the "inherent advantage" I referred to was the engine. Its no secret that the renault engine is down on power compared to the Mercedes and Ferrari engine. The rest is a matter of setup to take advantage of this. Additionally, the RB&'s strength is in the high speed corners; monza has no abundance of those.

You're right in that things this season have not gone as expected in terms of where we expect teams to be strong, but I'm cautiously optimistic. They have a great chance to beat Red Bull here and if things can just fall into place for them like they have for Red Bull in nearly every race this season, they can lock them out of the podium.

of course there's lots that could go wrong too. Mclaren could fail to shed enough drag and Ferrari may once again fade away on the prime tyre. We'll see on sunday.

Is there actually any evidence of the Renault engine being down on power? The 2 Red Bulls were actually one of the fastest in the speed traps in qualifying at Spa and they were no slouches either in Canada (compared to the Ferraris and Mclarens). I know Horner always whined about his engine being down on power last year, but then alot of us have learnt not to accept what Horner says as the complete truth.

I don't think Red Bull Renault have such a massive advantage in high speed corners anymore (Mclaren were definitely faster in sector 2 at Spa).

[raymondu999]

Yes but they were down quite a bit by the McLarens in Sector 2 because they had to back wing off.

[HampusA]

Yea Horner will try to pull every trick in the book
Can´t blame him though as it´s part of his job.

My favorite is the exuse for the flexing front wing, "oh no but it´s just the rake.."

[Aced]

I'm surprised that no one thinks the 2010-Button setup can actually work here again.

I think McLaren have gone with more downforce setups in these low downforce tracks on purpose. The main reason would be that, you can close the gap being faster through the corners to the car in front of you and then the DRS does the job for you.

I honestly believe that this could also be the case in Monza. More downforce; later on the brakes; better traction through the corners. And having better traction through those corners plays a very big role in Monza.

But for that to work of course you need an overall very good car in order to find the good balance between more downforce and good top speed. And I think McLaren are aware that on Sundays they have had a very strong car. So it could work. It's just an opinion and I could be totally wrong.

I found this one to be very interesting http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/ ... on-button/

[raymondu999]

I still believe that when they changed rear flap chord lengths that would've given them less race pace, sacrificed for quail pace. But we'll have to see in Monza. Everyone will be using a special package for the wings, and of course drs.

About having a higher downforce setup, it could just be, again, lack of faith in their drs. With a bigger wing, activating the drs should give a bigger drag/df reduction. Also, it's no use setting up to be fast in the corners unless you have the pace to be within 1s, and have the pace to keep out of 1s. So I think that in the end, you would still have to setup for your best lap time vs tyre preservation.

A large part of Button's setup last year was the f-duct, which they could use in every straight in the races last year. That's not around this year

[Byronrhys]

I'm surprised that no one thinks the 2010-Button setup can actually work here again.

I think McLaren have gone with more downforce setups in these low downforce tracks on purpose. The main reason would be that, you can close the gap being faster through the corners to the car in front of you and then the DRS does the job for you.

I honestly believe that this could also be the case in Monza. More downforce; later on the brakes; better traction through the corners. And having better traction through those corners plays a very big role in Monza.

But for that to work of course you need an overall very good car in order to find the good balance between more downforce and good top speed. And I think McLaren are aware that on Sundays they have had a very strong car. So it could work. It's just an opinion and I could be totally wrong.

I found this one to be very interesting http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/ ... on-button/

Yeah like ray said, it wouldn't be smart to set up the car like that, you'd get mugged in the race because you'd be so slow without the DRS for the whole lap yes, you'd be fast in the corners but the loss on the straights would be staggering without the F-duct.

[marcush.]

I always thought in the times when you could change wing settings from qualy to race it was invariably the case you needed to shed aa bit of drag for the race to not be too vulnerable on the straights and sacrifice a bit of out and out lap performance.

Now the times are different as you cannot use DRS as the guy in front and KERS is by far not not enough to help you.

I´m pretty sure with two drs zones you simply live with the fact you might be overtaken then and again.But the inflationary availability of overtaking opportunities in this race the focus must be on being able to close in on your opponents.
So it´s important to be able to slipstream -long enough gearing under all conditions- and good downforce to close the gap in the detectionzones + maximised laptime potential with DRS closed .
Quite interestingly RedBull took a route optimising lap time with DRS open everywhere but the very slow stuff for qualy ,which is surely one of the reasons the gap in the race is smaller come race day..On a track like Monza I wonder if they need to rethink their approach.

[Gerhard Berger]

I'm surprised that no one thinks the 2010-Button setup can actually work here again.

I think McLaren have gone with more downforce setups in these low downforce tracks on purpose. The main reason would be that, you can close the gap being faster through the corners to the car in front of you and then the DRS does the job for you.

I honestly believe that this could also be the case in Monza. More downforce; later on the brakes; better traction through the corners. And having better traction through those corners plays a very big role in Monza.

But for that to work of course you need an overall very good car in order to find the good balance between more downforce and good top speed. And I think McLaren are aware that on Sundays they have had a very strong car. So it could work. It's just an opinion and I could be totally wrong.

I found this one to be very interesting http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/ ... on-button/

The time you gain in the corners at Monza is dictated more by mechanical grip (i.e. braking stablity, traction and ability to ride the kerbs) rather than aerodynamic grip. Sure running a bit more wing would gain you some time in the corners, but it would be more than offset by the time you lost on the straights.

I think Monza last year was a bit of a one-off because of the F-duct.

[marcush.]

sorry I beg to differ there...
You got turn3 Biassono with 260 entry and 305km/h apex the two lesmos with approach speeds of 260 and of course you got parabolica ...
The question is would you lose more acceleration through drag penalty or gain more through traction advanatages ...mind you there are three chicaanes where you need to have good traction wich is of course enhanced by aero forces as well...

F duct and DRS are equivalents in what they achieve the difference is obviously availability.

[raymondu999]

Which one is Biassono? Never heard that name before.

Lesmo one and two will benefit a bit with more df; as will Parabolica; but you won't gain much apex speed with more wing in Monza IMO. Traction and braking will get a bit of help from that extra downforce; but not apex speed.

[marcush.]

sorry ,the corner is better known as :

CURVA GRANDE

I just used the official naming .

I remember we had that discussion about downforce benefits petering out with cornering speed .
Sure adding downforce will add also drag and a track like Monza with terminal speeds towards 340km/h the line is very fine but as you have adjustable wing angle available ,the possibilities are endless to trade ni9n a few notches of terminal speed for an advantage in certain areas of the track.
a lttle extra drag through Curva Grande will not hurt you much -as there is no real opportunity to overtake ...but the brakepoints are all yours as are the getaways from the chicanes..So you really can work the traffic with a highish downforce setup inch closer in the slow stuff ,tuck in behind the opponent when drag is your enemy and use the DRSzone to blast past .The interesting bit is -as soon as you are at the front of the pack and no slipstream available -you are done,as the lap time is evaporated.
A scenario would be to stay close to the leader and snap him up in the last lap?

[raymondu999]

Ah. Grande. Right. To be honest I don't think more DF will help there; it's flat out now anyways. I have no doubt it'll probably be flat out in the dry with DRS open anyways

For what it's worth, Monza is said to be nice and dry. Not surprising really. Though I wouldn't mind the winner to be the one that won the last Monza wet race