Mercedes GP W02

[raymondu999]

Huh? 7th?

[Robbobnob]

hes referring to the top 3 teams having 6 cars between them i assume.

They really need to solve this tire issue for their next years competitor

[marcush.]

reality usually is not nice-when you not happen to have your workshop in Santa Barbara and can take a short trip across the road into the sea and back to work within your lunchtime.
seriously .
Michael was asked exactly this yesterdays live on air on his personal TV show and he paused a LOOOONG time before answering the following:
No I don´t think I´m finally coming good it´s just the car and team gave me the opportunity to fight closer to the front .In every other regard I´m like I am and I try to get the most out of what I have.The last two weekends the car was good enough for the position I ended up with simple as that .Of course I can judge situations very cool and measured just because of my long career and the many top guys I had the pleasure of driving with ...and i enjoy every moment having those fights .Obviously you are maximising your opportunities right to the edge, but you have to when your counterpart is Hamilton or Alonso and they do the same.

[HampusA]

as for the debate on the engines. the engine development was frozen long before the merc brawn deal.I know there are little bits you can still work on but realistically I dont think you could pull out 30bhp without mclaren knowing about it.

That´s because it´s not true. There was a troll that out of the blue stated that but had absolutely nothing to back it up with. Really really sad in my opinion.

He´s also the one claiming that there´s a conspiracy between Mercedes and Mclaren...
But we (the normal kind) knows that Schumacher had practically no wings on his car and it was geared slightly taller. It´s just that some people like to troll and spread false messages.

[MIKEY_!]

Yes, schuy had an advantage cause their car is faster anyway and ran less wing than mclaren and had different gearing. And of course the mclarens were in his 'dirty air'. Any difference in engine power would be negligible and could even be as much to do with engine wear. If there was a significant difference then MGP would take the better engines but i think mclaren would notice and probably rage.

[dren]

Force India must have had the best Mercedes engines a year or so back based on all of this logic.

[munudeges]

No, but the Mercedes engines that Force India did have clearly helped them.

I see people are still trying to explain away the suspicions via wing levels and gear ratios........ No, this query is not purely based on speed trap figures, because when you compare the Renault (topped the speed traps regularly) with Red Bull (Renault engines, but had amongst the slowest top speed) you see those differences. Red Bull were clearly accelerating to their maximum speed faster than Renault were, as were other teams, despite Renault's top speed. Speed trap figures are very misleading.

If you've got two cars that have the same engine then logically if there are differences in set up you will see Hamilton be faster in one part of straight line performance and weak in another, as the Renault powered cars were. However, you clearly see that Hamilton cannot out accelerate Schumacher, he closes slightly in the slipstream and then immediately falls back when he pulls out because he doesn't have the maximum straight line speed.

Any ideas as to why that would be the case, because I don't? I've seen nothing in response to that other than people repeating the same stuff over and over and saying "It's not true". However, I realise you can only come to a conclusion that might be uncomfortable for some.

[munudeges]

as for the debate on the engines. the engine development was frozen long before the merc brawn deal.I know there are little bits you can still work on but realistically I dont think you could pull out 30bhp without mclaren knowing about it.

MHPE are not employing close to 500 people to work on an engine they can't get any more performance out of and the marked difference in straight line speed between Pirelli's Toyota mule with a homologated 2009 engine and the gains in speed reached at Monza just adds fuel to the fire. Homologation was supposed to cut costs.........

If McLaren aren't getting all the support that Mercedes can give them then what is McLaren going to do about it?

[PhillipM]

Because he got so tight up behind Shuey he couldn't get the hammer down until he saw Michael do the same, then you've got the reaction time differences.

Before he caught Michael (and after Button passed Michael), you could see the McLaren was both faster at the apex and able to get on the power and accelerate faster out of the corner.

[Intego]

It's Bernie Ecclestone. He told everyone to be slower than the Germans, because he fears to lose the money out the Nürburgring race. The government of Rheinland-Pfalz isn't willing to subsidise the track any more. With successful Germans in a successful German car with a successful German engine they are forced to.

You can anticipate the same for the GP of India, when Chandhok and Karthikeyan will do a 1-2 in the Force India in order to convince the government of relinquishment of those stupid taxes.

[bjpower]

as for the debate on the engines. the engine development was frozen long before the merc brawn deal.I know there are little bits you can still work on but realistically I dont think you could pull out 30bhp without mclaren knowing about it.

MHPE are not employing close to 500 people to work on an engine they can't get any more performance out of and the marked difference in straight line speed between Pirelli's Toyota mule with a homologated 2009 engine and the gains in speed reached at Monza just adds fuel to the fire. Homologation was supposed to cut costs.........

If McLaren aren't getting all the support that Mercedes can give them then what is McLaren going to do about it?

500 people is not allot for a company that has to churn out F1 engines for 3 teams.
these are not exactly rover V8s. the tolerances are crazy. and yes im sure they have been working on the mapping for the exhausts etc. they may be working on the next gen engines too.

honestly a difference in speed between a car that never raced and cars that have been tuned and refined over a season. I would point out the speed difference between the mclaren in testing and the one that showed up in OZ. Im not sure if the toyota was using a merc engine but if it was it was never designed to.

Your comparing apples to oranges.

as for what would mclaren do about it. Im sure they had it in their contract that they would get the works engine. so a big lawsuit.

also why would merc not help mclaren? they are not competing against each other yet. but for the PR of the parent company a win for mclaren is a win for every c class owner out there better than getting beaten by a drinks company in a clio

[munudeges]

500 people is not allot for a company that has to churn out F1 engines for 3 teams.

Not sure how you gauge that this is not a lot, but it's a lot more then the around 200 people Renault employ.

as for what would mclaren do about it. Im sure they had it in their contract that they would get the works engine. so a big lawsuit.

Hmmmmm, no. Firstly, you have to define what a works engine is and prove that you're not getting one. That's close to impossible, and in the meantime when you're involved in all of this legal action your engine supply deal on a practical level is going down the pan as is your ability to race. McLaren don't exactly have anyone else to run to.

People who think lawsuits like this are easy obviously don't have much idea of the practical problems they represent.

also why would merc not help mclaren? they are not competing against each other yet.

The real question is why would they help them? On the contrary, they are very much competing against each other, and Mercedes GP wants to be where McLaren are. It's pretty obvious how you can easily help yourself to achieve that. I don't think Sauber or Torro Rosso are directly competing against Ferrari at all, but they're definitely not getting the engines Ferrari are either.

I'm just not seeing any arguments as to why Mercedes would not help themselves. It's pretty straightforward.

[bjpower]

you dont seem to understand how a company works.
its not what can we do whats best from us.
its what can we do that looks the best and cover our ass.

also the legal contract would define the works engine.
no one would sign a multi million pound contract unless it was watertight.

the mclaren lads would have loads of detailed data to bring to the case rather than the snippet of data we get as viewers.

"People who think lawsuits like this are easy obviously don't have much idea of the practical problems they represent."

lol
see point 1
the threat of a lawsuit brings to light that merc we giving mclaren a raw deal. the head lads in germany would have there ass. merc sell cars on brand and reputation.
tarnish that and you ass is not covered.bad publicity = high level manager fired.
high level management do not like that

why would they help them?
when mclaren wins its a win for merc (car manufacture) as well.

sorry for the off topic ranting - if there is a kind mod out there that can move this to its own topic

[munudeges]

Because Schumacher had a better top speed and better gearing he could use that to his advantage if Hamilton got past which he did.

I do wish people would read and comprehend things...... This is exactly the point that was made. You shouldn't have better gearing for acceleration and a better top speed in comparison to another team with the same engine because you compromise on one or the other. McLaren being quicker through the corners tells us nothing about straight line performance and just confirms the obvious - Mercedes have a severe lack of downforce.

That's why I made the careful point of the Renault powered teams and how different Red Bull and Renault were. Renault had amongst the highest top speeds but their straight line performance was actually quite poor because they couldn't accelerate to that top speed quickly enough.

If you do have those two things in your favour, and at every single circuit we have seen I might add, there is really only one thing that can enable you to have them - the engine. I know it's an emotive topic for some to face but, seriously, it really isn't a large stretch of the imagination.

[munudeges]

also the legal contract would define the works engine.
no one would sign a multi million pound contract unless it was watertight.

Once again, they would have to define a works engine and why they felt they weren't getting what they were entitled to which is totally impossible. If MHPE comes up with a tweak that gives their engines an extra 10 horsepower then there will be absolutely nothing that says that McLaren have to be given that update. Engines are also homologated which makes it even more difficult for McLaren.

I see a rather disturbing trend on these forums where people who obviously haven't had any exposure to large companies and complex deals have an extremely misplaced, and worrying, sense of trust that things are somehow just 'watertight' as a given. As with anything in life it's how something works in practice and who is in control that counts.

why would they help them?
when mclaren wins its a win for merc (car manufacture) as well.

Mercedes now have their own team with their own badge on it and there is a lot at stake, especially considering that McLaren are now a rival car manufacturer and are stuck with Mercedes engines for the foreseeable future anyway. Nuff said on that topic. It's as clear as day.