Mercedes GP W02

[bjpower]

glad to see you have read the mclaren merc contract.
as for large companies yes I have worked for a few.
and its all about marketing and image.
have a look around companies will work with bitter rivals on all kinds of projects.
you seem to have this mentality of its us V them which is never the case with multinationals.

the goal of Mercedes is to show they make great cars for the public to buy them.
as long as there is something on the podium that they can sell as Mercedes, be that a merc, mclaren of force india - they don't really care.

would you want to be the guy that decided that they could give mclaren a win with an extra 30 bhp. the guy that allowed renault beat a merc? you would be on the social welfare queue before you knew what was happening.

[GSBellew]

I don't get why this is still going.

Is it not simple, McLaren had a much bigger rear wing which please correct me if I am wrong = more downforce = more drag = lower top speed and slower acceleration.

Of course Lewis fell back as soon as he pulled out of the slipstream, he was sticking his air brake (in comparison to Schumachers) of a wing into the free air flow, even with DRS enabled I would say the Mclaren wing in Monza was producing more drag then the Merc one without DRS.

[marcush.]

the explanation is not the size of the wing...but running out of revs.If it were drag related Hamilton could have just soaked up Schumacher in the slipstream.(as the drag would be considerably lower slipstreaming.)

If you can raise your topspeed by 5kmh with that little flap opened what is the effect of removing basically your whole crossection as the car is punching a big hole into the air in front of you.
If the car is revving that high you willbe able to slingshot by ..not lose ground.

[NewtonMeter]

The current discussion is truly insane...You can't just give someone a different engine and think they won't notice. McLaren have been using mercs for a helluva long time. They'd know! Furthermore, I believe that the cars are inspected quite regularly and, added to that, you have to declare ANY changes you make to the engine and has to get unanimous approval from all the teams, i believe.

So merc can't go make a change to the engine and not give McLaren it as well, they'd know it instantly. So, in my mind for any difference in power, there remains only two possibilities. It's software related (in which there is a some margin for performance increase - McLaren should know, it's their bloody ECU after all). Or lubrication. I remember in 2008, Mobil brought a new fuel and Lube to silverstone IIRC and it apparently made a noticeable difference.

And here there is some room as well, because McLaren uses Mobil and Mercedes Petronas. And if you don't believe me, here is the proof (see Fuel):
http://www.mercedes-benz-hpe.com/hpe/ab ... ine_facts/

Or, it's just two cars with different gearboxes and very very very different aero. Crazy idea, I know...

It defies belief that this discussion is still going on...

[marcush.]

you are only fixed with the engine internals .
So inlet including fuel rails etc is free to develop
your exhausts -free
your pumps,sump,all ancilliaries free.

I´d think it was very naive to think everyone was getting the same just because the main lump looks the same.

Nobody said Mercedes is supplying detuned hardware to MCL
The word is Mercedes is putting extra effort into their own engines and development AND posibly runs those engines closer to their potential for a longer period.Which is entirely possible.

Mind you the engines were designed for higher revs originally so there is some allowance if you really are on toip of your quality system -and that is what Norby has emphasized now more than once...going as fart as claiming they had at least two more championships under their belt with the quality they build todays....

[NewtonMeter]

you are only fixed with the engine internals .
So inlet including fuel rails etc is free to develop
your exhausts -free
your pumps,sump,all ancilliaries free.

I´d think it was very naive to think everyone was getting the same just because the main lump looks the same.

Nobody said Mercedes is supplying detuned hardware to MCL
The word is Mercedes is putting extra effort into their own engines and development AND posibly runs those engines closer to their potential for a longer period.Which is entirely possible.

Mind you the engines were designed for higher revs originally so there is some allowance if you really are on toip of your quality system -and that is what Norby has emphasized now more than once...going as fart as claiming they had at least two more championships under their belt with the quality they build todays....

This is eerily reminicent of McLaren and Honda in the 80's (I think). Everyone thought McLaren got better engines from Honda than they gave to their other customers. To the point that Honda made the teams draw straws on which team gets which engines... But at least, then it was the teams complaining, not the fans...

I can accept that MBHPE are giving the best engines (based on dyno runs) to MGP. But it would be 2-3 HP. 5 at the most. Not even remotely enough for a 10km/h difference, especially not at 340+ km/h.

This is not your old pushrod V8s. The tolerances are minute and correspondingly the variance as well. Exhaust and intake design are up to the teams, I believe. So if that's the problem, it's McLarens own fault.

The thing that keeps coming back to me is this, if there is a problem, why haven't I read anything in the news of it? Surely the teams would have noticed it long before we have and someome, somewhere, would have said something. And if they did, it must be entirely legal. Something like, as you said, exhaust or intake design - which is up to the teams.

Ask yourself, what would a team member of McLaren or FI say when they read the last page or so of this thread. Do you really, honestly, think they would say:

"Hold on, these fellows have a point - why didn't I think of it?"

Edit:
You also mention Mercedes putting extra effort into their own engine development. So if, as you say, the lump is the same in what would they do the extra development then as any development of the free parts would have to be declared anyway. As ferrari had to a season or so ago, when they changed a waterpump for "reliability reasons" and then changed it back because it was unrelaible (very funny at the time). Even ancilliaries have to be declared.

[The FOZ]

A few years ago, still during the current engine freeze, MercedesGP didn't exist, and McMerc was the only "real" team flying the Mercedes flag in F1 - Mercedes owned stock in McLaren. MHPE quite obviously would have supplied their very best to McL, no? Whether they had engines that weren't their very best isn't relevant yet...

Since then, McL bought back their remaining stock and Mercedes GP hatched, but MHPE is still supplying McLaren.

How then would MHPE have been able to start supplying lower grade engines to McLaren in the past 2 seasons, without McL raising all holy hell about it? They already knew what the frozen engine was capable of, so they would know if their engines supply began to suck after the companies split. It makes no sense to think MHPE would have been "holding back for later when we get our own F1 team again", either.

Could Mercedes be putting more effort into engines for themselves now, and giving everyone else the normal stuff? Sure...but again, every race win for Mclaren-Mercedes is a race won with a Mercedes High Performance Engine. If you're already doing the work, and not winning races in your own car, wouldn't you rather someone be winning with your engine? Particularly since McL is the only team to have consistently brought the fight to RBR this season? I'd be more inclined to want someone to win with my engine, rather than let another engine win!

[The FOZ]

Why does the MHPE site say they employ over 400 people, rather than the 500 being bandied about here?

Does MHPE produce engines for any other series? What about private owners of F1 cars - surely they need engines now and then, is there a down-spec Merc mill available to those folks? Are there other commitments being met at MHPE that would explain additional personnel?

I don't know about Renault, but MHPE claims to do everything for their engine in-house. That would imply design, casting, machining, composite production for the airbox, cutting, bending, and welding for exhaust, as well as testing, QC, etc. They also produce their KERS package in-house, which would ALSO have required design manpower, and gobs of additional testing. Whether that was accomplished with the personnel compliment required prior to KERS is anyone's guess...I suppose design may have been a bit low on work to do post engine freeze, so they could have done some of the KERS work, but then again, I'd suspect the engineering going into KERS may have required some specialists. There's also a new engine spec coming in...you can bet that's well into the design and testing phase, as well as KERS for the future - more capacity, etc.

Point is, there's a lot to do. So Renault does it with 300...they also don't appear to do it as well as MHPE, since the FO108Y, and previously the FO108X, and the FO108W, and the FO108V were ALL regarded the best of the field during their time.

[dren]

The Mclaren had a car set up for more downforce, higher drag, and shorter gearing when compared to the Mercedes. The Mclaren could hold a lot more speed through the corners but didn't have the top end due to gearing. The Mercedes had low downforce and good traction. The Mclaren would slow down when pulling out of the slip stream because of the higher downforce setup. Their gearing may have allowed for a higher top speed than what the drag allowed for.

The teams all optimise their setups for maximum lap time. The Mclaren was faster, Hamilton just had a hard time passing. They weren't quite fast enough to pass in the corners (ran out of space) and not fast enough to pass on the straights.

[marcush.]

Why does the MHPE site say they employ over 400 people, rather than the 500 being bandied about here?

Does MHPE produce engines for any other series? What about private owners of F1 cars - surely they need engines now and then, is there a down-spec Merc mill available to those folks? Are there other commitments being met at MHPE that would explain additional personnel?

I don't know about Renault, but MHPE claims to do everything for their engine in-house. That would imply design, casting, machining, composite production for the airbox, cutting, bending, and welding for exhaust, as well as testing, QC, etc. They also produce their KERS package in-house, which would ALSO have required design manpower, and gobs of additional testing. Whether that was accomplished with the personnel compliment required prior to KERS is anyone's guess...I suppose design may have been a bit low on work to do post engine freeze, so they could have done some of the KERS work, but then again, I'd suspect the engineering going into KERS may have required some specialists. There's also a new engine spec coming in...you can bet that's well into the design and testing phase, as well as KERS for the future - more capacity, etc.

Point is, there's a lot to do. So Renault does it with 300...they also don't appear to do it as well as MHPE, since the FO108Y, and previously the FO108X, and the FO108W, and the FO108V were ALL regarded the best of the field during their time.

Kers design and R&D is in Germany as far as I know?

[jav]

I understand munudeges point... if all other things were equal and you only had aero drag, final drive ratio and power to consider, the Mclaren by virtue of lower gearing SHOULD have been able to accelerate faster than the Merc- at least until earo drag and/or rev limiting came into play. I think the conclusion that becuase they couldn't, this must be related to engine power differences (merc having more) is a possibility- but not the only possibility or even probable.

There are many other variables to explain why the Macca appeared to have both lower acceleration and lower terminal velocity- such as differences in gear ratio's (below top gear). Being slowed more than expected in corners being stuck behind the Merc may have put them outside their peak gearing region at corner exit. traction on acceleration may not have been as good as the Merc due to diiferences in COG, weight shift, suspension geometries and/or the lack of aero efficiency (by virtue of speed or relative position) etc. There's quite a few factors that could explain this in addition to lower engine power.

Also- last year, the same engine relationship existed and the W01 had terrible top speed. Are we to beleive Merc screwed up last year and gave the good engines to McLaren becuase the trap speed situation was reversed? Of course not.

[mep]

I just watched the race again and it is obvious that McLaren was on the rev limiter. Therefore they could not use slipstream, DRS and KERS to get by the Mercedes GP. It is their own fault to gear the car like this they should have left some reserves.

[siwillems]

It should be Mercedes needing to run the massive rear wing because they're the ones with the large downforce deficit, but it's not.

Err, I think you're the one that doesn't really understand how it works, if you have a downforce deficiency, that's because your car has terrible aero efficiency with more wing bolted on, which means it's the very last thing you would do...

Personaly I think your both missing the point, its not the downforce which dictates the speed a car can travel for a given amount of enrgy but the drag, an efficient car will produce more dowforce for the same amount of drag than an inefficient car.

[dren]

I just watched the race again and it is obvious that McLaren was on the rev limiter. Therefore they could not use slipstream, DRS and KERS to get by the Mercedes GP. It is their own fault to gear the car like this they should have left some reserves.

Leaving some reserves might have made it possible to overtake the Mercedes down the straights but it would most likely have netted a slower overall lap time when in clean air. I don't think the drivers and team were planning on having to overtake many cars during the race. Poor starts screwed Mclaren, mainly Hamilton.

[siwillems]

I just watched the race again and it is obvious that McLaren was on the rev limiter. Therefore they could not use slipstream, DRS and KERS to get by the Mercedes GP. It is their own fault to gear the car like this they should have left some reserves.

The car was certainly quicker and optimized to produce a fast time, but the drivers/team screwed up and were overtaken off the start. I don't think the drivers and team were planning on having to overtake many cars during the race.

Very true, they in almost all certainty thought they just had to get past vettel - which would probalbly of been acheived in the undercut rather than a straight overtaking manouvere.