Italian GP 2011 - Autodromo Nazionale Monza

[ringo]

I admire Hamilton´s way of handling it though.

Hamilton is known for hard racing but Schumacher is the best at hard racing and Hamilton knows that. That´s why he did not complain after the race.
He figured it was his time to be on the other end instead of the other way around.

"it´s racing" sums it up perfectly i think. Next time it´s Schumi´s turn to work.
And i have to say i think Hamilton enjoyed that racing more then some other stuff.

Shumacher's hard racing is different. It's called giving the other guy the choice to kill himself or brake. He isn't the best at racing, he's the best at assisted suicide.

You are really mixing up things here .Hamilton and Schumacher did not even make the slightest of contact. Schumacher slowed down Hamilton to rob him of any chance to use the strengths of his car for a overtaking move ,which is in my book brilliant defensive driving .
Compare this with Webber vs Hamilton last year uncompromising cack handed sending the other guy into the wall.
It would be nice to not bash Schumacher for putting Hamilton on the grass and on the other side talking of brilliant overtaking of Vettel vs Alonso -who put Vettel in the gras just as much.

I don't bash micheal much. Hamilton and Shumacher didn't make contact because it was both of them, who generally are the best at that kind of stuff. The same goes for Rubens.
Shumacher's aim is one of 2 things, he's nice enough to give you a choice; brake or die. Slowing lewis down to rob the chance of an overtake is putting it nicely. I've seen MS assisted suicides too many times.
Had it been a driver like Buemi or one of the little guys being squeezed, the out come may have been different. Micheal has tended to lose front wings when he tries the same tactics with the other drivers. They simply don't expect the grimy style of racing MS is doing.
Webber vs Hamilton is a case of Self control. Micheal has more control when he pushes the boundaries with these things. The others get extreme out of frustration.

I didn't really notice Alonso on Vettel being really extreme. It happened too quicky against a car that looks like it would still lap faster if it were driving on the grass the whole lap. The difference in speed between the cars was too great for Alonso to really hold Vettel to the fire.

[ringo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eJGUQms ... ture=feedf

I somehow get that feeling that Schumacher did not defend his position very hard against Button because at this point he already knew that he go to pits.

I think the reason why Hamilton couldn't overtake Schumacher was that he was trying a bit too hard. Hamilton is an aggressive overtaker and it's just too hard to overtake Schumacher with aggressivity because he's always going to be a little more aggressive than you. You have to play it smart rather than aggressive with Schumacher if you want to get away with it easy.

The problem was that Hamilton was catching him too early and getting out of the slipstream halfway through the straight and from that moment with the extra drag he was slowing down which allowed Schumacher to pull away again before reaching the corner. So by the time he reached the corner, most of the time, he was behind Schumacher not alongside him.

That's the difference with Buttons overtake. He closed in from a long way, got out of the slipstream very late, used the extra speed to it's max extent and that's it then you're just gonna have to brake late and go for it. He did the same with Rosberg in Spa, he moved out of the slipstream the moment he sensed that he was getting too close too early.

Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eJGUQms ... ture=feedf

You can't play smart and overtake shumacher. You simply need to be much much faster than him.
If you think Button was doing anything smart to pass Old dog Shumacher think again.

Button's overtake was not possible without micheal's tyres going off and him moving offline to mess with Hamilton.

I'm not bellitling Button, but he would have been in the same position as Lewis for all those laps, which we have seen him in a number of times. You have to consider what actually happened. The overtake was quite obvious with Shumacher's compromised speed.
It's only similar to Rosberg in terms of the closing speed, which is tyre degradation stage related and momentum related. The overtake was nicely timed with Hamilton bugging MS; a tag team if you will.
Which i would say Button has a vulture style. Wait until the guys up the road mess up or wear each other out then move in.
It doesn't work so well if they don't mess up or if it's a one on one fight for the win.

Also in order for these opportunistic overtakes, you have to be waiting round back for laps, which defeats the purpose as this allows the leader to make the gap bigger as you wait on the guys, who are slower than you, to mess up.
Button has always been closing in at the end and never quite getting to fight to first place guy. Too much time wasted waiting in the first half of the race.

It's smart as it bags safe points, because the overtakes are easier on a "wounded animal". There is no need to fight or take big risks. But the drawback is the wasted time and the obvious fact that the leader isn't waiting on anything but the checkered flag.

[Poleman]

Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eJGUQms ... ture=feedf

Looking at the vid it looks like MS almost let Button pass...lol
Just one move to the left and tidy breaking and that was it.I dont buy thee stuff that Lewis was over agrresive and Buton was smarter, as Hamilton pulled the same move as JB at the exact same point several times but MS went die hard defensive Its like he was determined to not let Lewis pass just coz it was the man with the yellow helmet... Kind of odd if u look at it but nevertheless good balls out racing. =D>

Shcumi was missing some old good balls out racing,so that explains why he chose the McLaren with the #3 on it to play with.

[CHT]

[...]

[ringo]

Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eJGUQms ... ture=feedf

Looking at the vid it looks like MS almost let Button pass...lol
Just one move to the left and tidy breaking and that was it.I dont buy thee stuff that Lewis was over agrresive and Buton was smarter, as Hamilton pulled the same move as JB at the exact same point several times but MS went die hard defensive Its like he was determined to not let Lewis pass just coz it was the man with the yellow helmet... Kind of odd if u look at it but nevertheless good balls out racing. =D>

Shcumi was missing some old good balls out racing,so that explains why he chose the McLaren with the #3 on it to play with.

Yes, Shu seems to enjoy the dicing. But it takes a driver of similar mind to give him a good fight. I guess this is why Lewis wasn't really complaining about the double move by Micheal.
It's the Tiger Woods effect. Whatever you want to call it. Players tend to give their best when teamed with tiger on when competing neck and neck. The level drops when he's doing rubish like nowadays or not playing. Kobayashi, Petrov, and the other young pretenders get antsy when they see the yellow helmet or Micheal turning the bend. That's how they earn their stripes and beef up their repertoire.

Lewis needs to switch helmets with Button man.

Aside from that, any video out there of Vettel's overtake on Alonso?
Also the start of the race?

[Mr Alcatraz]

Aside from that, any video out there of Vettel's overtake on Alonso?
Also the start of the race?

I already posted it (the Vettel pass of Alonso) once but the fun police took it down!
Here is another link that is working on Tuesday 12:31am PDT (Pacific Daylight Time) it is abundantly clear that Fred left Vettel room on the track. For whatever reason (I suggested earlier that) Vettel didn't trust Fred to play fair and decided to take to the grass. It is slanderous to say Fred pushed Seb off the track, he left Vettel enough room to stay on the track!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFhPAvr_OMo

I didn't really notice Alonso on Vettel being really extreme. It happened too quicky against a car that looks like it would still lap faster if it were driving on the grass the whole lap. The difference in speed between the cars was too great for Alonso to really hold Vettel to the fire.?

Fred did nothing unfair the link is quite clear in this matter.

[thatnoone]

I would've love to see Schumacher racing Vettel. But I don't think that
would happen.. yet.

[marcush.]

you guys are funny.
Button swept by almost effortless and clean because he is a well measured character .He understands racing and he is prepared to not blink when invited.

Hamilton on the other side admitted himself to being cought napping when the safety car came in ..concentrating on Schumacher behind instead of trying to stay close to the front...and then throwing everything at Michael .It was entertaining but clearly Schumacher was not crumbling under that pressure.I don´t think it was very useful for Hamiltons race to try and try instead of switching to something different in terms of tactic-serve an early stop for the primes and get those out of the way and attack at the end..As a team you also need to decide what is best for your driver .

[sAx]

...Button swept by almost effortless and clean because he is a well measured character...

This might put some of your comments into perspective. http://sport.uk.msn.com/f1/news/button- ... rs-tactics


sAx

[Traction]

not sure why some are throwing things at Alonso though....the move he made when Vettel ovetookl him was imo was fair and legitimate. He never shut the door completely and never continued drifting over towards Vettel once Vettel had the gap. Vettel was left a gap that never left him much room and he probably did not want to take a chance of contact....

[Paul]

Does anyone else think that Hamilton was pushing Vettel to the left at the start to give Alonso more room so that he wouldn't lose his car on the grass? I think this was good sportsmanship from him. If he stayed on his line he probably would have gone to race lead, with Alonso doing a "Liuzzi" and Vettel being on the outside into the first corner...

[Mr Alcatraz]

Does anyone else think that Hamilton was pushing Vettel to the left at the start to give Alonso more room so that he wouldn't lose his car on the grass? I think this was good sportsmanship from him. If he stayed on his line he probably would have gone to race lead, with Alonso doing a "Liuzzi" and Vettel being on the outside into the first corner...

As much as I think The Boss and Fred get on very well and are both fairly happy being multi-millionaires I really doubt it. I'd have to see the video again. Most likely he was moving to the left to get on or at least clse to the best line into the chicane.

[komninosm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eJGUQms ... ture=feedf

I somehow get that feeling that Schumacher did not defend his position very hard against Button because at this point he already knew that he go to pits.

Hmm Schumacher goes to the mid of the start straight, then a bit too the left and then to the right (which is not the racing line for a right-hand turn). Conclusive evidence he broke the 2 moves rule. He should have been penalised. At least officially asked to give up the place, not this behind the scenes BS.
Overall we might have seen a nice fight for 1st (instead of 4th) place between Button and Hamilton trying to catch Vettel (or at least for 2nd if V was too fast), but Schumacher ruined it with his illegal driving and the steward for not doing anything. Alonso would have been passed easier I think cause of lower max speed.

PS: Not to mention the way he cuts Hamilton off on that turn was dangerous and other drivers would have crashed into him probably (I'm looking at you Koba and Webber and pre-constant-scolding-Hamilton). You can see how Hamilton is breaking early even though he's running more wing because Schumacher's constant dangerous illegal blocks have made him fearful.

[komninosm]

Does anyone else think that Hamilton was pushing Vettel to the left at the start to give Alonso more room so that he wouldn't lose his car on the grass? I think this was good sportsmanship from him. If he stayed on his line he probably would have gone to race lead, with Alonso doing a "Liuzzi" and Vettel being on the outside into the first corner...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72rVGudg ... re=related
(youtube vid of the start)

You be the judge.

PS Totally!

[thatnoone]

Does anyone else think that Hamilton was pushing Vettel to the left at the start to give Alonso more room so that he wouldn't lose his car on the grass? I think this was good sportsmanship from him. If he stayed on his line he probably would have gone to race lead, with Alonso doing a "Liuzzi" and Vettel being on the outside into the first corner...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72rVGudg ... re=related
(youtube vid of the start)

You be the judge.

PS Totally!

i guess the tactic was to force vettel to a lower position regardless of who is in front.. anyway, it was a good conduct.