Silly Season 2011/2012

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
gridwalker
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Re: Silly Season 2011/2012

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MIKEY_! wrote:... it don't make sense to me that Renault (engine supplier) would drop Lotus (black/gold) and keep other lotus while taking on Williams. Why trade a reasonably good team while keeping a rubbish one and taking on a pretty poor performer (5 points this season!?!).
Mainly because the former works Renault squad have become an embarrassment to Renault over the past few years.

First there was crashgate, which made the board of directors want a graceful exit from the sport, so they sold the team to a venture capitalist who are yet to drop the Renault name 2 years after the sale.

Next came the naming dispute between the two Lotus teams, where Renault come off looking like the bad guy because the little green minnows had claimed the Lotus name first (which, in the playground logic of public perception, is all that really matters).

There were also the complaints about Petrov's "Renault" getting in the way of the championship decider last season (generating bad PR for Renault) and the recent driver dispute where Heidfeld was reported to be taking "Renault" to court for breach of contract.

There have been persistent rumours about "Renault" running out of money : Would the average layman think "Oh, that is because of the strange way the venture capitalists at Genii are running the team" or would they simply think that Renault are a big wasteful corporate entity producing cars that nobody wants to buy?

This has all been terrible PR, as most people won't differentiate between Renault the team and Renault the corporation, so any controversy associated with the team will also smear the manufacturer despite having sold the team to get away from the negative press that they had been attracting in F1.

How many cars have gone up in flames this season? Only the Renaults ... did Renault build those cars? No ... but their name is on the chassis and the commentators are obliged to call them Renaults. Will Renault have been happy to see that? I don't think so.

Selling the team to Genii may have made financial sense at the time, but the situation has gone from bad to worse : being associated with that team has generated nothing but negative press.

And THIS is why Renault are more likely to dump their former works outfit, yet keep the backmarking team in green : by comparison, the outfit run Tony Fernandes is bright and positive, running their team with unparalleled openness in a sport that is reknowned for smoke and mirrors. This open approach has created a small but loyal fanbase that are more likely to reciprocate any support that "their" team receives. In marketing terms, this is infinitely more valuable to Renault than the black and gold controversy-magnet that is currently bearing their name.

I believe Renault will have NOTHING to do with Bahar's trainwreck next season : they've already strengthened their partnership with Red Bull, trying to glean as much exposure from that relationship as possible.

If you can take some of the credit for the most dominant partnership of recent years, why would you want ANYTHING to do with a team that does nothing but generate negative press? Grid position won't even be a factor in the decision for second-string engine supply. If your engines are winning the championship, you'll get more goodwill from fans for also supporting an underdog.

</epic rant>
Last edited by gridwalker on 20 Sep 2011, 12:15, edited 1 time in total.
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."

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MIKEY_!
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Re: Silly Season 2011/2012

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If there have been problems for so long (and clearly there have) I wonder why they couldn't just tell the new owner to take the 'Renault' bit out of the team name. Surely they would have maintained control over their own name. Big corps don't usually let just anyone use the name.
There were also the complaints about Petrov's "Renault" getting in the way of the championship decider last season
Thought that was a credit to Renault and petrov to be honest. I personally don't think any worse of them because of this season, but i can see how the layman could.

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matt21
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Re: Silly Season 2011/2012

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I think the issue with renaming the team is the same as with Sauber last year.

Gaara
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Re: Silly Season 2011/2012

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MIKEY_!
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Re: Silly Season 2011/2012

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matt21: missed that fiasco, where do i find it?

Gaara: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Richard
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Re: Silly Season 2011/2012

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Mikey - I suggest you start with wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauber#The ... .932009.29

F1 has some rules to prevent the rights to entry from being traded. It has a commercial advantage in that Bernie controls the entry. It also provides continuity for the series, you don't get any tom dick or harry popping up, buying the right to entry from someone, running a mickey mouse operation for a few races and then disappearing.

So if a team collapses, the entry rights return to Bernie and he can sell them to a new person. This is controlled via the chassis naming. So when BMW wanted to pull out, they had the option of surrendering their rights (like Toyota) or transferring to Sauber. That transfer took a year, first Sauber had to buy into the team, then BMW had to withdraw, and then the team applied to Bernie to be allowed to be renamed.

Normally this is an orderly transition behind the scenes, such as Red Bull taking over Jaguar. McLaren will soon have to apply to drop the Mercedes part of their name. It only becomes a public issue when a team collapses, such as Toyota, Honda, BMW, and Renault doing a fire sale to get out of the sport.

As I recall these changes also need consent from all the teams, that's how Brawn was able to emerge from Honda, while Toyota's attempted sale to an unknown person didn't get permission.

So to get back to Renault, I think Lotus/Bahr don't own a stake in the team, they are merely sponsors. The team is still owned by Renault (25%) and Genii (75%). Its a team based in Oxfordshire, with owners in France and Luxembourg, that happens to carry advertising for a company called Lotus who happen to make road cars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Rena ... roup_Lotus

Lotus Cars have as much to do with F1 as Vodafone and Marlboro.

noname
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Re: Silly Season 2011/2012

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MIKEY_! wrote:If there have been problems for so long (and clearly there have) I wonder why they couldn't just tell the new owner to take the 'Renault' bit out of the team name.
If my memory is correct rules says engine supplier name has to be included in the name of the F1 team.

ESPImperium
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Re: Silly Season 2011/2012

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richard_leeds wrote:So to get back to Renault, I think Lotus/Bahr don't own a stake in the team, they are merely sponsors. The team is still owned by Renault (25%) and Genii (75%). Its a team based in Oxfordshire, with owners in France and Luxembourg, that happens to carry advertising for a company called Lotus who happen to make road cars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Rena ... roup_Lotus

Lotus Cars have as much to do with F1 as Vodafone and Marlboro.
All you said was correct, but this part. As of Singapore 2010 the team was 100% owned by GenII as Renault had sold the 25% they held to GenII, with this new sponsorship came aboard as well from the Baltic states i belive. When Group Lotus came along they gave Renault their firsd down payment of €55m for the season and invested the €30m to buy the 25% that was owned by the guy in the Baltics his money back.

However Protoon now want to pull this investment from the Einstone team and pull the sponsor money as well to my knowlege. It could be they pull their sponsorship and then try and transfer the shareholding for much less than they paid for it to Gerrard Lopez or another investor.

Also to what ive been led to belive now is that Renault Cars now have envoked the clause for the team to have its name changed as Renault Cars have instructed the FIA and FOM that the Renault F1 Team trading as Lotus Renault GP will have a new name next year.

Bullier and Lopez want compensation in the form of Engines and KERS from Renault Sport in 2012 and 2013 and Renault Sport to buy tu pt €30m of IP from the team for the KERS it developed as the MGU and wiring harness have their IP all owned by Renault F1 Team, Red Bull are unnaffected by the Harness, but use the Renault MGU for their KERS.

Renault Sport and Red Bull Technology are set to buy this IP, but Renault Sport are also wanting to leave Renault F1 team out in the cold for engine supply seemingly as they want to run ideally 3 teams (Red Bull as #1, Williams as #2 and Team Lotus as #3) with a posible 4th team in Hispania.

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MIKEY_!
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Re: Silly Season 2011/2012

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noname wrote:
MIKEY_! wrote:If there have been problems for so long (and clearly there have) I wonder why they couldn't just tell the new owner to take the 'Renault' bit out of the team name.
If my memory is correct rules says engine supplier name has to be included in the name of the F1 team.
To a point. Do you ever here commentators call it the Renault Red Bull or the cosworth Hispania team. Sure its the official name but few actually use it.

Thanks Richard and ESP. So if proton pull the sponsor money away what do Renault F1 become. GenII F1? Who is left?

noname
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Re: Silly Season 2011/2012

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MIKEY_! wrote:To a point. Do you ever here commentators call it the Renault Red Bull or the cosworth Hispania team. Sure its the official name but few actually use it.
You suggested to take away "Renault" from the team's name, but the only way to do this is to stop using Renault engines.

Sure, commentators are not so strict, but in every official communication "Renault" will still be present. Whoever the owner of the team would be.

Richard
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Re: Silly Season 2011/2012

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If Proton remove their sponsorship it'll become Renault Genii... or perhaps use another existing sponsor, such as Renault Lada. I'd love to hear about Lada racing in F1!

munudeges
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Re: Silly Season 2011/2012

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Gaara wrote:No F1 return for Raikkonen
http://www.f1zone.net/news/no-f1-return ... onen/9030/
There's no way I can see Raikkonen doing that kind of schedule.

munudeges
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Re: Silly Season 2011/2012

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MIKEY_! wrote:If they are so shaky then I do wonder how they hired...They see potential. They can't all have not done their homework.
I have never really subscribed to they "They must know what they're doing" line of reasoning, and I don't know why any reasonably intelligent person would in all honesty.

If you offer a lot of people a lot of money then it's amazing how much potential they can all suddenly see. The problem is that no one has any real idea where any of this money has suddenly come from. It's like Qadbak. The fact that the Renault team is having to run around squeezing the Russian sponsors as well as grabbing a few Brazilian ones might lead one to believe that there is not as much money flowing from their title sponsor as one would think.

Gaara
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Re: Silly Season 2011/2012

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BBC reports that Kimi is interested in Williams
http://www.f1zone.net/news/kimi-interes ... 2012/9084/

ESPImperium
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Re: Silly Season 2011/2012

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As ive just tweeted, we know what happens to Will They/Wont They in the F1 circus.

Alonso wasnt going to Ferrari this time 2 years ago as Kimi was staying for 2010. Also Button to McLaren and Michael returning to F1 with Mercedes all went gonna happen as well.

Kimi will be on the grid next year in a Renault powered FW34.

When this happens, watch Rubens decide to retire at Brazil this year and take a Pedro De La Rosa style deal at Mercedes or go into Indy to race alongside his friend TK.