This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
Norbert the Haug always says something about Mclaren when they win a race. It still is certainly good PR for Mercedes, even if it isn't the Mercedes team winning. There is still a benefit from Mclaren having good (on par) engines with Mercedes.
However, I see Mclaren picking up different engines after 2014 if Mercedes intends to stay in as a manufacturer. Maybe...just maybe....if my wishes come true, Honda will re-enter as an engine supplier.
At the moment McLaren's engine situation post-2014 is uncertain and Neale's interview really did nothing to clarify it, the exact opposite in fact, perhaps deliberately so. McLaren know the score. Mercedes is a rival team, there's no getting away from it and McLaren can't be put in an adverse position with regard to development of the new V6. They aren't Force India, or Torro Rosso or Sauber and they can't afford to be pushed into that position.
We'll have to watch with interest as to how this PURE thing develops I think. That's all masked in curious secrecy.
Undue importance when the head of McLarens technical department issues a statement?
I need to read it again, in case I missed any punch lines.
McLaren aren't renowned for their humour. Everything about them is serious, which is what attracted mercedes to them in the first place.
It amuses me that when people in these positions issue statements not concurring with your opinion you choose to play the "PR" hand. But such is life.
I think we all need to gain some middle ground pointers to form some semblance of agreement. What do you say guys?
It's the only way the tit for tat crap will be nailed and will actually lead to constructive debate.
@dren
Mate I'm counting the days for the return of Honda, and I hope it won't be too long!
Mr.S wrote:
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I think Mercedes fans are giving too much importance to trolls who just want to belittle Mercedes. The same people will bash Merc for not having a TD & will say Bob bell is not enough to challenge Newey when Merc apply a TD. When reputed guys like Costa may join,they say there may be a coflict of opinions.
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This ^
You can't reason with a person who only sees conspiracies behind every corner
F1PitRadio @F1PitRadio : MSC, "Sorry guys, there's not more in it"
Spa 2012
Well, McLaren having their engine development directed by a company that now has its own rival team is obviously going to give McLaren cause for concern. Can we at least acknowledge that much?
While it's right for people to be suspicious about what equipment Mercedes may or may not be giving McLaren or others versus their own team we're going to have to wait for a bit of a smoking gun on that one, probably until McLaren's relationship with Mercedes has ended.
We'll see what happens for Mercedes in Singapore. I think we can agree they have the straight line performance, and if MHPE is favouring them then fair play to them (who wouldn't?), but downforce is king.
A company who were stakeholders in Mclaren Formula 1 team,partners since years. Every victory for Mclaren is a victory for Mercedes.
Until an unless Mercedes is a serious challenger or it is Mclaren vs Mercedes for the victory it is stupid to discuss this. If Mercedes cant win,they would rather have Mclaren win than Ferrai or Red Bull. To be frank Mercedes are 1 full second off & have no chance of winning now.
Mr.S wrote:
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So (k)now a WILLIAMS FLOP is gonna save Mclaren.
I'm done with giving undue importance to hypocritical & stupid opinions.
I've heard that when McLaren recruited Sam Michael, it was with strong competition from MGP for his services?
Nice sources. Since I have seen that rumour appearing nowhere,not in the oddest of places you have probably heard it from the mundaneges guy. My 2 cents it has come from either of your heads.
When it comes to Mercedes,they were recruiting guys like Bell who made Championship winning cars like Bell & possibl guys like Costa who made race winning cars. Not guys like Sam Michael whose cars only managed to beat Vigin,Hispania & Lotus.
In that case fantastic job by Mclaren snatching away Sam Michael away from Mercedes. Maybe Mclaren will now become a truly giant force & Sam Michael's cars will beat Virgin,Lotus & Hispania by an even bigger margin.
Mr.S wrote:A company who were stakeholders in Mclaren Formula 1 team,partners since years. Every victory for Mclaren is a victory for Mercedes.
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Not necessarily, I believe Haug knows all too well that his new venture will be directly compared with his previous one, where the first McLaren-Mercedes of 1995 scored two second places, while the following season yielded six podiums.
In only their third season together, 1997, they had seven podiums and two wins on merit.
Fourth and fifth season are classic Hakkinen-history of course.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"
I accept McLaren are now second to Mercedes in the pecking order of importance to Mercedes. But lets dissect what this actually means:
1. Mercedes by rights should be the number 1 recipient of all things Mercedes-Benz.
NOTE: this does not mean Mercedes build 2 different variations of engines/KERS and keep the good one for themselves. Homologation and freeze rules make any room for manoeuvre too tight, not to mention easy to notice a discrepancy between like for like engines.
2.Expanding on point 1, you have the disaster facing Mercedes if they were found out to be supplying sub par engines to its customers. Ferrari selling 10,000 cars a year will be unaffected, but Mercedes selling 1 million+ will certainly lose sales if this sort of news come to surface. Thats why it wouldn't happen, The tiny gain they make out on track with a non winning car is a fraction of the loss they'd take on sales, image and perceived method of operations.
3. McLaren are within their rights to go with Renault, Ferrari, Cosworth or the defunct Honda/Toyota/BMW V8's if they felt they were being handicapped with inferior engines.
4. McLaren are actually the only team capable of winning with Mercedes power at present.Do you think the lads at Mercedes HPE think giving Mclaren a F0108 V8 with 30bhp shy of the factory teams is going to see their name on the winners rostrum?
Of course not! Victory is all important to Mercedes, be that in a Merc GP or a still silver liveried Mclaren the 3 pointed stars' engine powered that victory.
And it scrubs one off that potentially may be a Renault or Ferrari powered victory.
5. There are also regulations that each engine should pass. They all have to conform with design plans given to the FIA on the onset of the freeze. with a difference of 30hp(figures bandied on these pages like candy) there would be a difference somewhere. And Im pretty sure there are repercussions for this too.
People can talk about the bell curve, But I know for a fact the Honda S2000 engine which produces 237bhp in Euro trim will have 236 to 238 bhp(with factory recommended oil and petrol) This is a car that sold over 100,000 units with a less than 0.5% difference.
I use this example because its a mass manufactured engine produced in a very controlled environment.
What do you think even more highly trained team, in even more controlled environments are going to produce? a worse percentage?
I'm surprised no one has brought up the "advisory" role Mercedes HPE could be providing Mercedes GP.
This is pure speculation, but it does ring of common sense:
While intentionally giving "lesser" engines to the non-factory teams would be unethical, it'd be perfectly reasonable for Mercedes HPE to only offer the works team any further advice, such as with exhaust layout and what not (whereas McLaren would have to figure that stuff out on their own).
That could explain any extra "power" coming from the W02. The guys who built the engine have probably had more of a say in how that car was built. The power could be coming from a more suitable intake & exhaust, etc.
This works both ways. Teams come up with their own exhaust concepts to suit their own design requirements.
This very season we have seen that with the Merc mid mounted exhaust, Mclarens RB style exhaust and there oft speculated "octopus" exhaust.
Now McLaren have said many many times they are working extremely closely with MBHPE to come up with optimised solutions for their concept.
Now if there was any info transfer we would have seen Mercedes GP adopt the RB style exhausts far sooner than they did.
McLaren adopted it after the second test if memory serves..... So naturally Mercedes GP could also utilise this tech if it was forthcoming from HPE.
Indeed, X even mentioned a few times of the exhaust on the Merc look very "rough" and poorly executed. Yet the McLaren system is exquisite in detail.
Could they have really come from the same place?
Mr.S wrote:A company who were stakeholders in Mclaren Formula 1 team,partners since years. Every victory for Mclaren is a victory for Mercedes.
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Not necessarily, I believe Haug knows all too well that his new venture will be directly compared with his previous one, where the first McLaren-Mercedes of 1995 scored two second places, while the following season yielded six podiums.
In only their third season together, 1997, they had seven podiums and two wins on merit.
Fourth and fifth season are classic Hakkinen-history of course.
I dont know what you mean by classic Hakkinen victories. The first or second one as I remember Michael was surely better. Complete outdrove Hakkinen in a much inferior car. MSC won 6 races to Mika's 10 in 98 or 99 I cant remember. I do remember after 12 races they were tied with 6 victories a piece & Michael's car was much MUCH slower than Mika's. It was more of a fantastic car winning atleast in one of Mika's victories.
Cocles wrote:I'm surprised no one has brought up the "advisory" role Mercedes HPE could be providing Mercedes GP.
We have, but no one is paying any attention because it's simply too obvious. People working for MHPE also work for Mercedes GP. Trying to argue otherwise is like getting water to go uphill.
Hhmm the tone in this topic starts to become more aggressive.
Even so as this is not really a serious topic. It is all just speculation. Nobody of us can really say anything about the team or the people involved in it because nobody has worked there or know any of them personally. For me this is topic has something of an afternoon coffee chat among some friends. We could as good talk about something else.
Btw. xpensive how is your lawyer belle doing? I also have a lawyer currently. They are lovely albeit I did not expect them to work that much.
Mr.S wrote:
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I dont know what you mean by classic Hakkinen victories. The first or second one as I remember Michael was surely better. Complete outdrove Hakkinen in a much inferior car. MSC won 6 races to Mika's 10 in 98 or 99 I cant remember. I do remember after 12 races they were tied with 6 victories a piece & Michael's car was much MUCH slower than Mika's. It was more of a fantastic car winning atleast in one of Mika's victories.
Other than your rather uninspiring opinions on this and that, I wonder what your real contribution to this forum is Mr.S***?
I mean just read your piece above, you cannot even respond to another post without losing focus and take of in the tangent?
I don't know what bothered you about his post but he is definitely right about Micheal and Hakkinen battle in 98. That should have never gone to the wire. Even in 99 with Irvine it went down to wire...
