Red Bull Rake 2012 without EBD

[raymondu999]

Their secret is not the diffuser or the rake. It's the body.
The body is able to exihibit maximum aerodynamic performance at different pitch angles.
The rake does increase dowforce though. But it's not good for centralizing the downforce. Too much rake is also bad.

I may do a bar555 or scarbs like analysis of the redbull cars at the end of the season. Redbull may have to compensate me to keep the secrets.
But there is alot going for them outside of the EBD.

The nozzle exhuast was revealed, the rake was revealed, the high nose, the long gearbox. They use a lot of tricks, but all can be seen with the naked eye if you look hard enough.

Ringo, I'd love to see this. Hope you can find the time.

Ditto

[ESPImperium]

Im just wondering what serated skirts would do to the aerodynamics of a car???

Instead of the skirts going downward, place them going upward.

However the McLaren MP4/24 cut out at the coke bottle coule be used as well, however have them much more refined and posibly with air intakes as well.

However for 2012 the major diffrence will be at the front with the nose cone being lower. Scarabs said it on Twitter yesterday, the cars will have a nose that slopes upwards from the front going it use the best of 2011 and 2009 for a couple of cars.

I think that the team benifit with this will be Mercedes as they had just this last year with the MGP W01 car. Also Hispania and Virgin will have a advantage but they need to get their whole concept to be much better as a whole than focus on one area.

[raymondu999]

Will the RB8 not also benefit from the RB5 lineage? I thought the low nose regs were in 2014 no?

Also, to what extent are V-noses legal in RB5? Do they have to be "smooth" at the top, a la BGP001? Or are the v-ridges allowed?

[ESPImperium]

I think the low and narrow nose of the RB5 will help, but it will rise sharply as they teams will want to get the suspension high enough to get the uprights and pullrods away from critical flow structures.

However, the Mercedes will have alot of advantage if they went for the BGP001 outlook as they could go with a pullrod front suspension in my opinion. But not quite as low.

[raymondu999]

Scarbs says that 2012 is a low nose; and 2014 has VERY low noses. Whatever that means.

[Sonic59]

Im just wondering what serated skirts would do to the aerodynamics of a car???

I dont know exactly what skirts you talking about. There are lots of skirts in f1 car. I'll try to clear the situation about diffuser skirts.
Basically serrated skirt in diffuser works like a vortex generator. Lets see how vortex generator works on standart wing:

VG generates vortex, that spreads over wing surface.
Next picture we can see that at high angle of attack wing has flow separation that leads to stall. However using VG leads to higher maximun angle of attack without stall:

In aviation (my specialization) we dont like using VG too much because it leads to higher drag. However any aircraft that needs supermaneuverability (like fighter or sports aircraft) use VG because drag is not so critical there.
Next picture shows that when u look at f1 car body its very similar to airfoil:

With simple diffuser we can not create too much downforce because it would lead to flow separation:

But using VG will help to avoid flow separation at high diffuser angles:

Blown diffuser has similar effect, but maybe a bit more effective:

In aviation we have similar effect, we call it supercirculation. It works when jet stream located behind aerodynamic surface. Check MiG 1.44 - it uses supercirculation.

[dren]

I was thinking the regs reduced the V nose some for this year. I think the lower nose is for next year.

As for the Red Bull, the rear packaging along with the rake certainly are helping it create more efficient DF than the rest. That is why I am interested in how the car will retain the rake without the EBD. I expect other teams to follow suit.

[dren]

Sonic59

I'm thinking more along the lines as using something to create a fluid barrier/wall in the vertical plane that would extend the sides of the diffuser to the floor. This would allow the car to run more rake and a larger diffuser exit. I think it also cleans up the turbulent flow around the tires.

[Sonic59]

I'm thinking more along the lines as using something to create a fluid barrier/wall in the vertical plane that would extend the sides of the diffuser to the floor.

You can do it, of course. But anyway u'll face the problem of flow separation isnside diffuser.

[Sonic59]

Sonic59

I'm thinking more along the lines as using something to create a fluid barrier/wall in the vertical plane that would extend the sides of the diffuser to the floor. This would allow the car to run more rake and a larger diffuser exit. I think it also cleans up the turbulent flow around the tires.

There are similar problems in aviation. When a wing has sweep angle the flow irregularly distributed over the wing:

It leads to early flow separation at the end of the wing due to boundary layer increase. To avoid this effect we use special shaped wing:

It works like a vortex skirt. Is that what u need?

[dren]

Yeah, similar. I need to find a scanner or way to put it on paper cause my paint skills aren't too spectacular.

Is that similar to the forward swept wing idea?

[dren]

From another thread that talked about how the EBD was working to increase the diffuser volume. It also looks to clean up turbulent flow around the tires.

Heres what redbull is effectively doing to artificially create a diffuser thats almost twice as big as it should be. Ferrari and Mclaren are also effectively doing this yet they are still lacking downforce somewhere else. Ive already mentioned this before but the Red areas in the photo are the areas where the exhaust is getting blown in order to create a artificial barrier. This combined with super high rake creates one giant diffuser. Now... USUALLY general racing principals and common sense tells us that a high amount of rake is not beneficial because fundamentally you want the car to be designed and balanced with a rake that is level for CoG reasoning and a more harmonious suspension setup under motion changes. Normally a car with high rake like this is really badly design and using high rake to compensate for huge amounts of understeer but tends to be snappy mid corner. Red bull have designed there whole car around this super diffuser so that the car and aero are designed to be tilted way up in the air, making this whole crazy diffuser work well with there package. Kinda cool

[Sonic59]

Yeah, similar. I need to find a scanner or way to put it on paper cause my paint skills aren't too spectacular.

Is that similar to the forward swept wing idea?

Forward swept wing has reverse flow distribution. Its boundary layer increases from wing end to root chord. Thats why flow separation begins from rood chord, not terminal chord as for swept back wing.
U can also use vortex to control flow distribution, but for several reasons for forward swept wing its unnecessary.

[ESPImperium]

Im just wondering what serated skirts would do to the aerodynamics of a car???

I dont know exactly what skirts you talking about. There are lots of skirts in f1 car. I'll try to clear the situation about diffuser skirts.
Basically serrated skirt in diffuser works like a vortex generator. Lets see how vortex generator works on standart wing:

Im thinking the serated edges that the bardgeboards had on the F2007/F2008 and what the RA108 had as well later on that season.

Allong this edge:



Also just looking at the 2009 cars, and the RB5/STR4 had quite a high nose, however the McLaren MP4/24, Brawn BGP001, Ferrari F60, Williams FW31 and Renault R29 all had noses that could help in the 2012 rules, the 2014 rules will look like that BGP001 i think with wings being 25mm higher and reduced from 1.8m in width to 1.6m in width. I belive that the monocoque must not deviate from the footwell box that is on the appendix of the regs and not be V, U or D shaped at all.

[hardingfv32]

1) I believe that earlier in the season there were cars designed without EBD. Why did none of these cars make use of the ideas you are proposing?

2) Regardless of the quality of your diffuser edge/skirt sealing, why would you not want the largest possible diffuser exit volume? May I assume that a larger exhaust volume means the potential for greater low pressure?

Brian