Singapore GP 2011 - Massa told to destroy Hamilton's race

[ringo]

@timbo

He should be quicker, the point is he was carry too little speed.
The guy on the outside should not be faster in this case.
Remeber this is a sweeper not a hairpin. Your logic makes sense in a hair pin where low speed traction would favour the guy on the outside.
In this case, Hamilton should not be quicker than Massa from where he is on the track.
Hamilton enters at a slower speed, scrubs of more speed by rotating the car across to Massa. Massa having less wheel lock input, and a clear and wide exit leading to the curbs, should have no trouble navigating this corner at decent speed and grip.

Massa was so slow we could actually see a him make a correction to realign himself after he took the touch from Hamilton. Now that's too slow an exit speed.

Massa's line was not tighter. Raymundo, sometime we have to assess the situation than cut and paste rules of thumb about racing lines that generally fit the bill in some cases.
In this case, Massa was well positioned to accelerate harder out of that turn.
Look how he twitched to the right to align himself after the touch. He wasn't going as quick as the grip of the car could allow him.

Remeber this is not a hair pin. Massa was not defending the entry. He was defending the exit. which is what you do in a turn like this. You screen the exit.

His defense was not wrong, it simply was too slow for his own good. Hence the collision.

He could have exited quicker. And actually have a better chance of keeping the position.

The grip was available judging by his very straight exit.


Now the instruction to destroy Hamilton's race. Well i'll have to take that at face value. I don't know Smeddley or Massa personally to try to find an interpretation that is less severe. But destroying another driver's race is not actually legal, if one reads the regulations.
Controlling the race is different than destroying it.

[raymondu999]

To be fair ringo, it was taken out of context. It was probably meant to say "Come on, let's make life difficult for him," rather than "destroy his car"

[Mr.S]

When you are defending a position against hamilton sometimes you go to extra depths to defend,braking early or late.

Hamilton was entirely at fault in my opinion. As far as I saw Massa did not appear to slow going into the corner while there was no reason for Hamilton to charge into it. The attacker has to be fully sure rather than to take foolish risks.

I'm looking forward to the day hamilton gets a couple of black flags like Senna,he always wanted to be like Senna anyday.

I still rate Hamilton's move on Maldonado the worst of the season & even a stop go penalty would not be enough. So I dont think it was a bog deal for either of the guys,we have seen far worse. Probably Hamilton should have been doubly sure,it is stupid if you think Massa will not try to help Alonso who was running at probably 2nd in the race & in 2nd position in the championship.

[Kaluh McLaren]

I have no issue with Team tactics since it is part of racing. What I have a huge issue is with someone getting a penalty for a racing incident. You can tell by watcing at the video that Massa was closer to the apex, yet took a wide appraoch to the corner (instead of cutting closer into the apexfor a better racing line). Hamilton did not drive into Massa's read on purpose, just instinc would dictate Massa would take a regular racing line to his current closer to the apex position. It was a racing incident that did not merit a penalty. If Massa's race was ruines is because he chose to be a team player "puppet" instead of a racing driver.

If you are going to play instead of race be ready to pay for the consequences. Sorry Massa but stop whinning for 2008. Beat Alonso and maybe you can save some respect for yourself. I miss the 2008 Felipe.

I hope Hamilton does not change his driving style. Maybe if he waited for the next apex, he would have not ended up being a headline once again.

[timbo]

You can tell by watcing at the video that Massa was closer to the apex, yet took a wide appraoch to the corner (instead of cutting closer into the apexfor a better racing line).

Staying closer to the apex is better racing line ONLY if you late-apexing and brake properly. In his case he overshoot this corner, this happens OFTEN during overtakes. Had he tried to tighten his line on exit, he'd spinout.

[ringo]

Massa didn't over shoot.
He was screening the exit.

An overshoot would mean he would have probably ended up on the outside curb. He didn't and was in full control.
His exit was very clean.

His speed was very mild, too mild. In fact he didn't even brake late. Hamilton braked very early to setup for the under cut.
Massa lowered his exit speed to make sure he could hang out Hamilton as long as possible. Which was the partly the idea of destroying the race.
He lowered it too much obviously.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXGYZy5dmvs[/youtube]

Here we have a good example of the same line taken by Massa. This time it's perez.
Notice Perez speed and drive off the corner. Not a care in the world for screening micheal.
There is no lag or delay to screen the Mercedes.

Like Hamilton, SHumacher brakes earlier, note Massa does not brake late. It just looks that way relative to Hamilton.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXKas-9N_2Q[/youtube]

now, if we look here. similar line to perez, a bit tighter, but with enough room to take more speed. Massa delays on the apex, waiting to screen.

It almost looks like brake testing the way he sits on the apex, and how slow he comes off it.

Whatever it is he was doing, impeding or destroying it back fired. Clearly not a typical way to take that turn.

[timbo]

Clearly not a typical way to take that turn.

Yeah, not a typical way to turn in on the inside line.
There's no way to carry speed into the corner and take normal exit if you're on the inside line.
If you compromise your entry it suffers your exit as well.

[ringo]

Lets not cut and paste little "jems" of turn taking. Let's deal with what is before us.

Would you agree Massa was "slow on the apex?

remember you yourself said he overshot. Overshot means he should have flew pass the apex. Why aren't we seeing that Timbo?

Let's be objective based on the video evidence.


I was refering to his exact line, not the fastest line. It was too slow.
Perez was slightly wider, but his angle was the same as Massa's. He was way quicker, not to mention if he was on used tyres or not.

[timbo]

Perez was slightly wider, but his angle was the same as Massa's. He was way quicker, not to mention if he was on used tyres or not.

Are you making conclusions from those two vids? Because the Hamilton/Massa one has slo-mo kicking in.
If anything Perez vid clearly shows that such line does indeed compromise the exit.

[beelsebob]

I'd just like to say... I'm sorry.

My comment was meant to be sarcastic, and meant to stimulate people noticing that the FIA most likely looked at the telemetary and still decided it was hamilton's fault, not the --- fest that has ensued .

[strad]

Absolutely agree with people above – absolute non event.

1) It's entirely legal to impede another driver - when you're racing against them.
2) It's entirely legal to use one team member to hold up a competitive driver (as long as they're racing against them), and let the other team member scamper off.
3) Trying to destroy each other's races and have the best one you can have is exactly what F1 is about. There's rules about exactly how much distruction you're allowed to dole out, but it's still what it's about.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with this instruction at all.

We agree for a change

[donskar]

Another pointless thread for the fan boys. Massa gets paid LOTS of money to keep drivers behind him -- not to let them through.

[Traction]

Delusional.......

[ringo]

Race "destruction" now a part of the sport.

Boy i tell you.

Yep.. Yep..

[wesley123]

Another pointless thread for the fan boys. Massa gets paid LOTS of money to keep drivers behind him -- not to let them through.

Based on his race pace one has to doubt if this is the case