Singapore GP 2011 - Massa told to destroy Hamilton's race

[Traction]

Didn't LH drive erratically behind the pace car which caused Vettel to crash into Webber? Not sure which race it was though.....

[raymondu999]

2007 Japanese Grand Prix

[kalinka]

Driving slow indeed could be penalised, though it's not the same situation >

"Montoya penalised for Monaco incident

21/05/2005

McLaren's Juan Pablo Montoya will start the Monaco Grand Prix from the back of the grid, following this morning's incident, which involved Ralf Schumacher, Jacques Villeneuve and David Coulthard.

Race stewards, having received "input" from all parties, and technical data, found that Montoya was driving slowly up the hill (Beau Rivage) and indeed braked 180 metres earlier than usual. Furthermore, his speed at the point of the accident was 86.4 kph compared to 278.3 kph on his previous fast lap.

"As his progress was impeded in a minor manner, he braked and took exception to his lap being disturbed and subsequently drove unnecessarily slowly in a very fast part of the track," read a statement from the stewards."

EDIT : If this (telemetry) data was avaliable for stewards in 2005, then it's avaliable in 2011 too, so if someone look at the data, it could be sorted out what happened. Even months after, like we saw in "crashgate". The telemetry was avaliable to FIA monts later, and helped judging the situation. Now, we don't have any data, so we can't tell. I'm taking here a neutral position, because we really can't tell without those data IMHO.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Does that make you feel it's justified to bash Alonso to make him look more human?

Does Alonso lose a front wing/have an incident every other race? Does Alonso stand before the worlds media after being hauled into the stewards saying "maybe iz coz Im Spaneesh no?"
Trust me, if Alonso was displaying this sort of behaviour I would be passing comment on it too. Alonso is not beyond critique and neither is Hamilton.


No one is questioning Hamiltons driving prowess, of which he has plenty. But even the most rose tinted fans must say that Lewis is to blame for the vast majority of 2011 incidents.

Or are the FIA, F1, McLaren, Button, Ferrari and all non-Hamilton fanatics seeing another sport?

[Dragonfly]

Ringo, with all my respect for your technical knowledge and abilities and in full contrast with them, you are (or behave like) one of the worst fanboys I've seen.

[Shrieker]

30.13 At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed
potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person. This will apply whether any such car is being
driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.

This.

20.2 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as more than one change of direction to defend a position,
deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.

[...]
Driving to keep your position is one thing - Senna's defence against Mansell at monaco 1992 is a very good example-, trying to hinder other drivers by purposefully driving slower is another and there is nothing honuorable about it. The rule book might not include and deem such a situation illegal but remember it does deem "bringing the sport into disrepute" illegal. Some might call it 'teamwork' etc., how would you like it if the 12 cars on the grid drove purposefully slow whenever they got in front of a no. 1 driver, would you like it then ? I guess you would. Also keep in mind that after Eddie Irvine had impeded Jacques Villeneuve in Suzuka 1997, the FIA said they wouldn't allow such a thing and the the attempt was not going to go unpunished before the title showdown in Suzuka 1998. So we have a precedent too.

[Dragonfly]

Depends on how much slow is unnecessary slow.
By your logic they should have penalized Perez for being slow and causing MS to crash into his car
Unless there's objective data of Massa deliberately slowing down, the incident is all Hamilton's fault. And if there is even a hint about that, I don't think McLaren would remain silent too.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Nothing Massa was illegal in my opinion, the sad fact for him though is he was being used. He might have been instructed to destroy Hamilton's race, but in doing that he would also be destroying his own. Massa's Ferrari career is over.

Slowing on the apex (late on he throttle) of a corner is a well known defensive technique. I think that's probably the most Massa did, and it probably caught Hamilton out.

Hamilton's penalty was probably unfair, but it's a consistant penalty. Alonso got exactly the same when he made a similar mistake in Malaysia. Schumacher also got a similar penalty for making a a similar mistake in Silverstone. The drivers asked the stewards to be more consistant, and this year that is exactly what they have got.

Case Closed.

[Mr Alcatraz]

Nothing Massa was illegal in my opinion, the sad fact for him though is he was being used. He might have been instructed to destroy Hamilton's race, but in doing that he would also be destroying his own. Massa's Ferrari career is over.

Slowing on the apex (late on he throttle) of a corner is a well known defensive technique. I think that's probably the most Massa did, and it probably caught Hamilton out.

Hamilton's penalty was probably unfair, but it's a consistant penalty. Alonso got exactly the same when he made a similar mistake in Malaysia. Schumacher also got a similar penalty for making a a similar mistake in Silverstone. The drivers asked the stewards to be more consistant, and this year that is exactly what they have got.

Case Closed.

Well worded. Top shelf.

(Although defending can be tough, I disagree about whether taking it easy around one corner would ruin Massa's race. Nursing a flat into the pit and off the track did though.)
We didn't see one half of a lap of competition betwixt 'em.
I wonder?
Felipe heard Smedley's message, but that does not automatically mean that he will take it literally if he's feeling racey he may just decide to do his strategy. One never knows. ^BulK

[Shrieker]

Nothing Massa was illegal in my opinion, the sad fact for him though is he was being used. He might have been instructed to destroy Hamilton's race, but in doing that he would also be destroying his own. Massa's Ferrari career is over.

Slowing on the apex (late on he throttle) of a corner is a well known defensive technique. I think that's probably the most Massa did, and it probably caught Hamilton out.

Hamilton's penalty was probably unfair, but it's a consistant penalty. Alonso got exactly the same when he made a similar mistake in Malaysia. Schumacher also got a similar penalty for making a a similar mistake in Silverstone. The drivers asked the stewards to be more consistant, and this year that is exactly what they have got.

Case Closed.

Agreed almost %100. Under current rules, it looks like nothing Massa did was illegal. I think allowing team orders is a big farce and no wonder the decision came while Jean Todt's presidency. Not that it would prevent Ferrari from using their 2nd driver, but it would prevent it from being done so blatantly, and the teams would still be in fear of getting caught and refrain from such things (at least to some extent) that -imho- is bringing the sport into disrepute.

[Dragonfly]

You're trying to spin a particular case into a global FIA and team Ferrari political problem.
Keeping Hamilton behind was as much of Alonso's favor as it was for Massa himself. Because both (Massa & Hamilton) had stopped for tyres but came out with different types. Had Massa succeeded in holding Hamilton behind him even for a given amount of time he could have an advantage after the next tyre change. Hamilton was eager to overtake Massa before the softs on the Ferrari came to temperature and the latter easily explains why Massa might have been a bit slower.

[Mr Alcatraz]

It wasn't like Massa dawdled in the corner,
but what ever happened was an error of aggression, which in most sports situations is preferred to an error of omission.
However in this case the penalty is against agression... "caught napping"!

[PlatinumZealot]

He dawdled on the racing line in the middle of the turn. Even if you entered slow into the turn right after him you would still lose your front wing and destroy your race.

[Ray]

I think allowing team orders is a big farce and no wonder the decision came while Jean Todt's presidency. Not that it would prevent Ferrari from using their 2nd driver, but it would prevent it from being done so blatantly, and the teams would still be in fear of getting caught and refrain from such things (at least to some extent) that -imho- is bringing the sport into disrepute.

Sorry, but team orders were the norm when Jean Todt was all of 5 years old. Nice try.

[Ray]

He dawdled on the racing line in the middle of the turn. Even if you entered slow into the turn right after him you would still lose your front wing and destroy your race.

So if you rearend the guy in front of you, it's his fault for you not being in control of your car at all times? I suppose that Vettel clobbering Webber in Fuji wasn't his fault but rather Webbers' fault for reacting to Lewis driving erratically and dawdling under the safety car in 2007?