Singapore GP 2011 - Massa told to destroy Hamilton's race

[ringo]

Nothing Massa was illegal in my opinion, the sad fact for him though is he was being used. He might have been instructed to destroy Hamilton's race, but in doing that he would also be destroying his own. Massa's Ferrari career is over.

Slowing on the apex (late on he throttle) of a corner is a well known defensive technique. I think that's probably the most Massa did,

Nope it is not.

Hugging the apex is. Not slowing on it.

The idea of "holding" is simply not legal. The rules say otherwise.

It isn't, and neither Dragon fly nor whoever else can dispute that. So they write foolishness.

As for the other examples of the past, rules and regulations change a lot.

We cannot look back ten years to guess what is right and wrong, and yet have the regulations right in front of us and refuse to read them.

A good number of us have been watching F1 from the 90s, contrary to what people think hami fanboys do. But you can only compare the year with the regulations and what level of stewarding, and even the level of access that stewards have to radio.


And then again, stewards have the power to ignore events regardless if they break the rules or not.
So it's neither a matter of following trends in what was penalized when and where.

[ringo]

eager to overtake Massa before the softs on the Ferrari came to temperature and the latter easily explains why Massa might have been a bit slower.

Boy, a sea of speculation. You have no real evidence do you?

Massa was dead slow. It wasn't about tyre temperature at that point. He was very good on the brakes and had the grip, even when he was hit.

First you say he had all rights to slow on the curb and he did, then you say he didn't but it was tyre temperature.

You can't just pull things out of thin air like that.

Now why don't you directly address the regulations i posted?

[ringo]

He dawdled on the racing line in the middle of the turn. Even if you entered slow into the turn right after him you would still lose your front wing and destroy your race.

So if you rearend the guy in front of you, it's his fault for you not being in control of your car at all times? I suppose that Vettel clobbering Webber in Fuji wasn't his fault but rather Webbers' fault for reacting to Lewis driving erratically and dawdling under the safety car in 2007?

The discussion is not whether Massa caused Hamilton to crash into him.

Because of popular demand from the fanboy screamers we are not discussing HAmilton. We are discussing Massa.

And whether destroying another driver's race by slow driving in collision prone areas is legal.

It is very clear that Massa slowed drastically on the apex. Even when considering his line.

It is also clear that Smedley's orders were in line with what Massa was doing.

Some even agree and go as far as to say such driving is legal.

The regulations were posted, and it was shown that such driving isn't legal.

And here we are.

[ringo]

Driving to keep your position is one thing - Senna's defence against Mansell at monaco 1992 is a very good example-, trying to hinder other drivers by purposefully driving slower is another and there is nothing honuorable about it. The rule book might not include and deem such a situation illegal but remember it does deem "bringing the sport into disrepute" illegal. Some might call it 'teamwork' etc., how would you like it if the 12 cars on the grid drove purposefully slow whenever they got in front of a no. 1 driver, would you like it then ? I guess you would. Also keep in mind that after Eddie Irvine had impeded Jacques Villeneuve in Suzuka 1997, the FIA said they wouldn't allow such a thing and the the attempt was not going to go unpunished before the title showdown in Suzuka 1998. So we have a precedent too.

The book doesn't directly say it is illegal. But it does say such actions are.
For argument's sake a rule like this: thou shall not kill; such as stabbing and shooting another driver. It's a rule that includes all forms of killing and gives 2 popular examples; stabbing and shooting. But it's up to the stewards to decide what taking of life are killings outisde of these 2 well known ones.

I'd say Massa's tactics can be held as illegal if he and smedley do it again. Becuase it matches the definition of the rules perfectly. It just wasn't stated like the popular double move offense.

[beelsebob]

Driving to keep your position is one thing - Senna's defence against Mansell at monaco 1992 is a very good example-, trying to hinder other drivers by purposefully driving slower is another and there is nothing honuorable about it. The rule book might not include and deem such a situation illegal but remember it does deem "bringing the sport into disrepute" illegal. Some might call it 'teamwork' etc., how would you like it if the 12 cars on the grid drove purposefully slow whenever they got in front of a no. 1 driver, would you like it then ? I guess you would. Also keep in mind that after Eddie Irvine had impeded Jacques Villeneuve in Suzuka 1997, the FIA said they wouldn't allow such a thing and the the attempt was not going to go unpunished before the title showdown in Suzuka 1998. So we have a precedent too.

The book doesn't directly say it is illegal. But it does say such actions are.
For argument's sake a rule like this: thou shall not kill; such as stabbing and shooting another driver. It's a rule that includes all forms of killing and gives 2 popular examples; stabbing and shooting. But it's up to the stewards to decide what taking of life are killings outisde of these 2 well known ones.

I'd say Massa's tactics can be held as illegal if he and smedley do it again. Becuase it matches the definition of the rules perfectly. It just wasn't stated like the popular double move offense.

That's not the phrasing the rules use though ringo.
1) There is no "such as" involved – it's a rigid definition of the word "incident"
2) Impeding another driver during overtaking is not on the list – *illegally* impeding is.

[CHT]

In this video Martin Brundle speaks about The HANG OUT technique to slow down the car behind. (4.45sec). I thought this is common practice use by drivers to block the car behind.

http://youtu.be/Koprlc1T4sw

[Mandrake]

By slowing down (not brake-testing) someone you do indeed make it harder for the person behind to overtake. And that is common practice in most Motorsports. While the driver that is being overtaken takes a wider line to setup for the re-overtake, the overtaking driver wants to make sure the overtaken driver cannot use his advantage. This is done by staying on the apex which means you have to take it slower as you enter the corner from a much steeper angle.

Was it Turkey this year where Alonso drove his front wing off while closing in too quickly to Lewis? By Ringo's Logic Hamilton should have been penalised as well as he wasn't staying on the very outside of the track + possibly slowing down judging how quickly Alonso homed in.

Smedley's radio towards Massa was nowhere near being unfair or impeding to crash into Lewis....Alonso was slower than both McLarens, so consequently Massa would be as well. By holding up Lewis, Massa would be holding his position AND slow down Lewis at the same time. So staying ahead of Hamilton would serve both, holding the place AND destroying Hamilton's race. Nothing here about a number 2 driver.....

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

^^^^^^^^

This!

Its Formula 1 racing. Why should the man in front roll out the red carpet for a competitor to overtake?

[Hangaku]

I would say that this wouldn't even be a consideration, or even something to talk about - if Hamilton didn't stick his car into the back of Massa and get a penalty for it.

The very fact that this happened and armed with the new information that Massa was instructed to effectively slow Hamilton down, implies that Massa was intentionally driving slowly, in which case it was actually Massa that caused an accident, and the penatly was given to the wrong person.

Prove that I'm wrong.

Yes, it is racing - it's not called SLOWING. The drivers are there to beat each other, not to slow each other.

And even if you don't agree with this, it's just plain bad sportsmanship - emphasized by the fact that Massa was told to RUIN someone elses race - not CONSOLIDATE his own. The two things are entirely different.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I disagree Hangaku.

Hamilton had the faster car, and has already been explained would probably have been challenging Alonso sooner had Massa not been driving to maintain position.
And, as Massa has a vested interest in both maintaining position, and assisting his team there is nothing "bad sportmanship" about it.
This is racing. If you want uncontested overtaking you will end up with an anodyne version of a competitive sport.

Looking at the examples used in Hamilton's defence I would say they should start up their own uncontested overtaking formula. Whereby only Hamilton can overtake, or defend...then it will be fair!