2012 cars - lack of EBD

[raymondu999]

Given that next year we will see exhaust regs that will not allow teams to put an exhaust in a position capable of benefiting the diffuser; I think it's only fair we discuss who will be hit hardest, and who will be hit least with this change.

Conventional wisdom calls for Ferrari to be the main benefactor, as they did in Silverstone; and for McLaren (who were at sea in Silverstone, and in pre-season before they used the Red Bull copy EBD) or Red Bull (with the most experience with the EBD concept) to be hit the hardest.

Thoughts?

[beelsebob]

Given that next year we will see exhaust regs that will not allow teams to put an exhaust in a position capable of benefiting the diffuser; I think it's only fair we discuss who will be hit hardest, and who will be hit least with this change.

Conventional wisdom calls for Ferrari to be the main benefactor, as they did in Silverstone; and for McLaren (who were at sea in Silverstone, and in pre-season before they used the Red Bull copy EBD) or Red Bull (with the most experience with the EBD concept) to be hit the hardest.

I'm pretty confident that McLaren and RBR have the resources to design a car around a non-blown diffuser. McLaren I think was hit so hard in Silverstone, simply because this years car happens to be build around the concept of the diffuser... a concept that still isn't working as it should have originally.

[raymondu999]

Of course they do have the resources. But those are resources that they could have spent improving the rest of the car, rather than redoing the car concept for an EBD-less system

[ESPImperium]

Given that next year we will see exhaust regs that will not allow teams to put an exhaust in a position capable of benefiting the diffuser; I think it's only fair we discuss who will be hit hardest, and who will be hit least with this change.

Conventional wisdom calls for Ferrari to be the main benefactor, as they did in Silverstone; and for McLaren (who were at sea in Silverstone, and in pre-season before they used the Red Bull copy EBD) or Red Bull (with the most experience with the EBD concept) to be hit the hardest.

I'm pretty confident that McLaren and RBR have the resources to design a car around a non-blown diffuser. McLaren I think was hit so hard in Silverstone, simply because this years car happens to be build around the concept of the diffuser... a concept that still isn't working as it should have originally.

Pretty confedent to say they will go back to the 2009/2010 maps for initial runs before going out and getting maps specific for 2012 as early as Day 2 of testing as Day 1 is usually used for data collection and correlation to numbers from CFD and tunnels.

[Intego]

I think HRT, Virgin, and will be hit least.

Seriously, Lotus Renault and maybe Ferrari will be glad as well as Williams and Mercedes.
Despite that they maybe will suffer. It will not be about "EBD is gone, let's cope with it" but all about regaining the downforce you've lost. Who has the best idea and manages to fit it best. (As it is every year.) The new Ferrari contender is to be more aggressive. Hopefully for them they put their effort in the right direction.

Example: With this years DDD ban and one continuous line rule teams anyway tried to use exhaust gases for the diffusor – with different approaches. Renault thought they were clever with FEE. Can you remember when Bouiller couldn't hold back to reveal the FEE before they had made one mile? And RB saying nothing, everyone was guessing for weeks (in 2011 and 2010)? And McL testing every exhaust you can imagine?
Maybe it's something with team structures: Mercedes, Renault, maybe Ferrari decided a direction and then walked that line with blinders – at the end they never were comfortable.

Red Bull an McLaren are far more flexible to change development direction. In 2009 Red Bull was the best DDD copying team. In 2011 McL copied the RB style exhaust best.

You think of how to use the exhaust gases, but you have to start from scratch.

I wrote in the RB8 thread:

I think we will see a blown diffusor again (also on other cars). Either blowing from the cooling outlets or from vanes that create vortexes or both and so on.
Maybe they design a rim with flaps that creates a sealing vortex.

(Quote fixed)

[raymondu999]

The R31 has that too. While the RB7 has the cooling outlet cannon, they have the one thin cooling line across the whole rear

[raymondu999]

Given McLaren were testing that miniature wing that they put above the beam wing in the 15cm middle section; I wonder if that's already a sign of them trying to regain some of the downforce loss for next year.

[Tyler]

I would say that Red Bull has the most to lose.
They have the car that's the quickest under the current regulations so theoretically any change to the regulations means they have the most at risk from a change to the regulations.
They would be happy to see the regulations stay the same as they already know they have the quickest car under this set of regs.

[raymondu999]

I'm not quite sure I agree with your reasoning. Yes they have the fastest car right now under these regs; but that doesn't mean that the specific reg change that is occurring (whatever it may be; in this particular case the EBD loss) will hamper them the most... As an extreme example; if suddenly U-sidepods were banned. That wouldn't affect Red Bull in the slightest...

[MIKEY_!]

And they have a certain A. Newey to help them along. He usually responds well to rule changes, and these ones are not to drastic.

[King Six]

I don't understand why the media are reporting that the cars will have exhausts like the old days, exiting on the engine cover and being periscope exhausts. According to Scarbs, the exhausts exit behind the rear tyre above the diffuser and below the beam wing.

http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2011/06/1 ... re-banned/



How are the exhausts going to be? Old style periscopes that exit ontop of the engine cover, or these longer style exhausts exiting at the very rear of the car?

[imightbewrong]

I don't understand why the media are reporting that the cars will have exhausts like the old days, exiting on the engine cover and being periscope exhausts. According to Scarbs, the exhausts exit behind the rear tyre above the diffuser and below the beam wing.

http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2011/06/1 ... re-banned/



How are the exhausts going to be? Old style periscopes that exit ontop of the engine cover, or these longer style exhausts exiting at the very rear of the car?

That was an idea they were throwing around. But the teams felt it would be too easy to exploit, thus they changed to periscope exhaust. That article is old.

[King Six]

I see, he's just posted some updates on that too...

First View 2012 Periscope Exhausts: the last 10cm of exhaust must fit into the yellow boxes pointing up 10-30 degs

2012 Periscope Exhausts: From above the exhausts can be angled +\- 10 deg, the red cone must not overlap bodywork before the rear axle line

2012 Periscope Exhausts: The grey items are the influential bits of rear bodywork, rear wing, beam wing, diffuser and brake ducts

http://twitter.com/#!/ScarbsF1

[astracrazy]

Using that image, surely there is a very small area within the yellow box (above and side) which would allow the exhaust not to be on top of the side but slightly on the side which could blow the beam wing? is this right or just not the full rules?

[beelsebob]

i don't understand the red cone bit.

edit: i don't think the image loads properly, best to go to the twitter page to get full image. Is the red pointing out the areas it can influence/be aimed at?

http://twitter.com/#!/ScarbsF1/media/sl ... %2Fnwwveqj

Basically, you must not put any significant aero parts within a stelated cone starting at the exhaust exit, simple as that.