electrical diagrams. and batterys in f1 cars?

[manchild]

The alternator can create electricity without a primary power input...just look at the dynos used on bicycles to create electricity for the lights...in that case you don't need a primary power source! It's simply connecting the cables that leave the dyno to the lights!

Monstro you've mixed alternators with dynamos. They are both generators but alternators can't start creating electricity without primary input while dynamos can. That is one of the basic diferrences between alternator and dynamo as well as fact that alternator provides more power on very low rpm. Bikes have dynamos not alternators so they produce electricity without primary input.

http://www.allpar.com/eek/alternators.html

[Monstrobolaxa]

Can't find anything in the link you mentioned in your previous post mentioning it needs a primary power supply...the only thing it says is:

The Lundell alternator (the technical name for a clawfoot-rotor alternator) requires two watts of energy(power? my terminology is slipping) to spin it for every one watt that it produces.

The energy that is mentioned here is the rotational energy that is brought to the alternator from the belt connecting to the engine! It like hp it's a way of representing energy! 1 hp = 745.699872 watt!

So basicly the alternator removes from the engine: 2 watt (= 0.00268204418 hp) for every watt "transformed" into electrical energy!


Concerning a dynamo and a alternator:

dynamo:

- A machine for converting mechanical energy to electrical energy. Common name used for direct current generators.

- A device that generates electric power from the engine's activity.

- A device that produces Direct Current from a rotating shaft.

- The process in which the motion of electrical charges generated a magnetic field.

- generator consisting of a coil (the armature) that rotates between the poles of an electromagnet (the field magnet) causing a current to flow in the armature

alternator:

- A part of the electrical system which converts mechanical energy from a drive belt into electrical energy to operate the ignition, electrical accessories and to charge the battery.

- A type of generator used in automobiles to produce electric current

- A device that produces Alternating Current from the rotation of a shaft

- An electrical generator that mechanical energy into elec- trical energy for powering circuits in a vehicle. With the engine running, the alternator recharges the battery

- A device powered by a vehicle's engine that creates electrical energy to charge batteries and power on-board devices

----

Well...like you see both of them are quite similar! Both create alternate current...while the alternator has diodes that make the circuit as an AC...the dynamo in same cases doesn't! And I've always been told that a alternator is a specific kind of dynamo! In both cases you can charge a battery.

[manchild]

Can't find anything in the link you mentioned in your previous post mentioning it needs a primary power supply....

Let me try again

Here is where they mention primary power supply:

When the rotor is energized, the effect produced is that the top shell becomes a magnetic 'north' and the bottom shell becomes a magnetic 'south'.

Before alternator is "energized" as they say (connected to primary power supply) it rotates with no drag caused by magnetic field because it has no permanent magnet but electro-magnet (coils). It requires primary power supply to generate magnetic field in order to start producing electricity.

For same reason racing cars with batteries have switch that cuts off primary power supply to alternator reducing drag and enabling better acceleration of engine and higher rpms. Since it considers that ignition will be powered only by battery once primary power supply is switched off, those gains in performance last only shortly and alternator must be “re-energized” before voltage of battery drops low (this can be done manually by switch or automatically).

This whole gain and difference in rotation drag between energized and non-energized alternator can be felt even by hand – once when your in situation to be at car repair shop (when belt driving alternator is being changed) try rotating alternator with primary power on and off and you’ll feel the difference.

Dynamo has permanent magnet so its rotor is exposed to magnetic field constantly.

[Monstrobolaxa]

Ahhhh...now I get it!

I've always had the impression that they did have 2 magnets in the alternator for starts...and the electro-magnet effect only came into effect after reaching idle. I thought it was a dyno at the start.

[manchild]

Hehe.. I'm glad I could help

BTW, its a shame this thread ended in off-topic

[Ciro Pabón]

Hehe.. I'm glad I could help

BTW, its a shame this thread ended in off-topic

Well, maybe it is so because a little basic explanation on electric systems on a racecar would be a nice addition to the thechnology section. Anyone gives a shot?

I ended up wading the Internet just to try to find a source for my belief that the battery not only stores the charge of the alternator, but also serves as voltage stabilizer for the entire circuit. I do not know, and probably never will, if this role I think it has is unimportant in F1 given the rpm range of alternator and the size of battery. All I found was electric car conversion pages and wiring diagrams but no "concept" explanations.

Finally, I never explained why I found so evident that batteries have to be on board, even if you figure out how to get rid of them (maybe attaching a windmill to the cockpit? ): they are requiered by regulations to keep the safety systems (and everything else!) running in case of accident or stalling. The fire-extinguisher switch has its own battery, also by regulations.

[manchild]

F1 needs battery because of all that electronics that is sometimes required to work before engine is running. F1 engine itself doesn't need battery once it is started. Same thing for passenger cars - you can start the engine, unplug the battery and there would be absolutely no diffference at all (I've done so several times ). Only important thing is to isolate + cable to prevent it touching the mass of the car.

[Belatti]

Nice old thread!

Im wondering about different kind of systems I can install in a race car that can charge the battery when the car is braking and can cut the feeding when you are on full throttle.

Any supplier / system is welcome!

Thanks!

[flynfrog]

what about adding an alternator to the drive shaft with a one way clutch

I think that would work its been a long day