Scarbs T-Tray proposal

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hollus
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Re: Scarbs T-Tray proposal

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Callum wrote:Surely when the tea tray is in the 'lowered' position i.e., the front of it is scraping the ground it will choke the floor of airflow?
In normal operation mode, the tea tray stays just clear of the ground. It only touches the ground transiently when going over bumps, etc. So that choking would happen for very little time, a worthy compromise to run the car lower at all times. Also, the plank is in a relatively narrow center section of the car's floor, there would still be some ground clearance either side of it for (some) air to feed the floor.

horse wrote:
scarbs wrote:One of the contemporary planks I saw was nothing like wood, more like a vinyl wood product.
Wouldn't that contravene this:
3.13.1 b) be made from an homogeneous material with a specific gravity between 1.3 and 1.45;
due to the fact that such a plank isn't made from a homogeneous material?.
How does one define homogeneous? Is carbon fiber homogeneous? Both chemistry and biology tell me that wood is not homogeneous at all. Yet the FIA has so far been happy with it.
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Dragonfly
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Re: Scarbs T-Tray proposal

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Isn't the plank one for all and approved by FIA?
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myurr
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Re: Scarbs T-Tray proposal

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Dragonfly wrote:Isn't the plank one for all and approved by FIA?
I don't think so. If I remember correctly it's dimensions and composition are dictated in the rules but the teams source their own planks and can still make them from two pieces (was previously three).

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ringo
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Re: Scarbs T-Tray proposal

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Image

so there is a pivot round back too?

As smikle said, it's best to look at the forces involved to see if what is being proposed is realistic.
Also if there is a picture of another car beside a redbull that has this wear pattern.
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hardingfv32
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Re: Scarbs T-Tray proposal

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1) The wear pattern on the car above and the RB at Monza is simply the wear you see from occasional contact with the track surface. The force of the impact is strong enough to cause the splitter/tea tray to flex where it meets the chassis. The splitter/tea tray is cantilevered and will simply bend if the enough force is applied. The wear pattern we see fits this "simple" scenario.

2) It is stated that this "see saw" theory does NOT include or account for the current use of support strut between the chassis and the nose of the splitter/tea tray. This is clearly visible on the RB. This would an add more resistance (greater plank wear?) to flexing under a "see saw" system.

3)The splitter must flex to make to make the "see saw" high rake system function. It must be flexed at all times that you require a high rake setting. Thus, the leading edge of the splitter must be in constant contact with the track surface. Even if you use carbide to line the nose of the splitter you are going to generate great heat. The carbide might not smoke, but what ever the plank is made of will eventually smoke. Why are we not finding unusual marking on the track?

Brian

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atanatizante
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Re: Scarbs T-Tray proposal

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Does anybody noticed the secondary or maybe can we say the primary effect of this flexible splitter/tea tray? What happens with the opposite side of the splitter/tea tray which is not hitting the ground? It applies an upside force to the plank hence making some DF to the car, don`t you think? And if this force is applied near or at the same level/plane of the CoG the better ...
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myurr
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Re: Scarbs T-Tray proposal

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hardingfv32 wrote:1) The wear pattern on the car above and the RB at Monza is simply the wear you see from occasional contact with the track surface. The force of the impact is strong enough to cause the splitter/tea tray to flex where it meets the chassis. The splitter/tea tray is cantilevered and will simply bend if the enough force is applied. The wear pattern we see fits this "simple" scenario.

2) It is stated that this "see saw" theory does NOT include or account for the current use of support strut between the chassis and the nose of the splitter/tea tray. This is clearly visible on the RB. This would an add more resistance (greater plank wear?) to flexing under a "see saw" system.

3)The splitter must flex to make to make the "see saw" high rake system function. It must be flexed at all times that you require a high rake setting. Thus, the leading edge of the splitter must be in constant contact with the track surface. Even if you use carbide to line the nose of the splitter you are going to generate great heat. The carbide might not smoke, but what ever the plank is made of will eventually smoke. Why are we not finding unusual marking on the track?

Brian
3) Not true. It allows you to run closer to the ground knowing that if it does bottom out then you're not going to wear the front of the plank too much. We're not talking about constant contact, but the ability to run closer to the ground more of the time. Don't forget that only specific parts of the plank are tested, not the whole thing.

2) The strut (bib stay) was used previously on other cars to control the amount of flex - it was even a sprung member. Its presence doesn't support or contradict the theory. For the record the bib stay on the RB is not exactly the sturdiest looking to ever grace F1!

Image

For example see this article http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2007/0/396.html

1) The wear pattern *could* show that the splitter is flexing upwards from that second wear point; BUT I believe this type of movement would show more consistent wear across that whole front section. If it is flexing around that point then you could see wear at the very front of the plank from when it first rubs, and then the pivot point could rub more as it effectively becomes the front of the plank when the rest flexes upwards. However I would expect the wear mark to be more graduated and less sharp if this were the way it was happening, as the rest of the plank wouldn't leave contact with the track, it would just not rub as hard.

My belief is that with the explicit pivot that the wear lines would be sharper and more defined as we are seeing on the Red Bull.

So all in all there's nothing to here to prove it one way or the other. I guess all I'm hoping for is that the FIA adjust their test procedures to make sure that this isn't happening. There's nothing unfair or wrong in the FIA doing so and it'll stop there being any doubt that Red Bull are taking advantage of the specifics of the test.

dan
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Re: Scarbs T-Tray proposal

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>> 2) The strut (bib stay) was used previously on other cars to control the amount of flex - it was even a sprung member. Its presence doesn't support or contradict the theory. For the record the bib stay on the RB is not exactly the sturdiest looking to ever grace F1!


is it not possible when the front of the plank hits the ground it levers up the stay keeps it up or somehow delays it coming back down?

wouldn't the front of the tray be most likely to when the weight is on the front of the car IE on the brakes? so once its up the stay could keep it tucked till the weights transferred back to the rear wheels

hardingfv32
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Re: Scarbs T-Tray proposal

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"It allows you to run closer to the ground knowing that if it does bottom out then you're not going to wear the front of the plank too much."

The is a very good point. This system could allow for less damage/wear from contact with the track. One plank measurement hole is at the center front of the splitter and two holes are located near the end of the splitter. There are others specified in the rules further back.

"I guess all I'm hoping for is that the FIA adjust their test procedures to make sure that this isn't happening. There's nothing unfair or wrong in the FIA doing so and it'll stop there being any doubt that Red Bull are taking advantage of the specifics of the test."

No more FIA regs on any subject. The current regs allow for some creativity, even if we are the ones making up the theories. Is this not part of the fun of this forum. Look how dull this week would have been without scarb's idea.

No mechanisms can be associated with the splitter stay per the rules.

Brian

hardingfv32
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Re: Scarbs T-Tray proposal

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The bib stay or strut:

"For the record the bib stay on the RB is not exactly the sturdiest looking to ever grace F1!"

If this is the case does it mean it contributes little in compression when the FIA 200 kg test is applied? Is it there primarily as a tension member then, to hold up the splitter from the aero load?
Can we imply that this aero load is greater than 200 kg? I am assuming the splitter has equal strength in both directions.

Brian

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MIKEY_!
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Re: Scarbs T-Tray proposal

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That would be my bet. They didn't even have it at the start of they year.

myurr
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Re: Scarbs T-Tray proposal

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hardingfv32 wrote:No more FIA regs on any subject. The current regs allow for some creativity, even if we are the ones making up the theories. Is this not part of the fun of this forum. Look how dull this week would have been without scarb's idea.

No mechanisms can be associated with the splitter stay per the rules.

Brian
I'm not asking for more FIA regs, I just want the existing rules to be applied consistently and fairly. If there is a flaw in the testing procedures that one team is exploiting then the FIA should adjust the tests to make sure that the rules are being applied. There is specific provision within the rules to allow for this.
hardingfv32 wrote: No mechanisms can be associated with the splitter stay per the rules.
Red Bulls thinking seems to be bend the rules to breaking point, change the car once caught or something is 'clarified' - and the FIA seem happy to allow them to get away with it.

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ringo
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Re: Scarbs T-Tray proposal

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Why are we assuming the rear and front have the same spring rates?
It's perfectly possible for the lateral roll center to give the car a certain rotation as the rideheight lowers.
It can rotate to sit flatter as the car squats.

It may be too simple to assume that it's normal for only the front part to wear.
I am seeing the same wear patter in the rear and yet there is no theory being put forward for that.

also we need pics of other race cars to see if this is something normal.
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myurr
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Re: Scarbs T-Tray proposal

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We're not assuming anything - we're trying to explain the unusual wear marks on the Red Bull plank. For comparison here is a photo of the Williams plank from Monaco.

Image

Notice how the wear is pretty even over the whole thing rather than focused in specific bands like on the RB.

I have no idea about the wear at the rear of the RB plank. Is it legal to artificially wear the plank in such a manner, and could there be an aero advantage in doing so no matter how small?

hardingfv32
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Re: Scarbs T-Tray proposal

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"I'm not asking for more FIA regs, I just want the existing rules to be applied consistently and fairly."

The application of the rules must be consistent enough for a team to use the design that we are discussing. Why proceed with such a design if you are not confident in the testing methods? Fair! This is F1.

"If there is a flaw in the testing procedures that one team is exploiting then the FIA should adjust the tests to make sure that the rules are being applied. There is specific provision within the rules to allow for this."

Could one assume that there is no flaw in the rules, and this is the reason they are not changed?

Brian