Mercedes GP 2011

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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Ahh feel the love eh guys?

Mercedes will not disappear into the F1 wilderness like Honda BMW and others. This here is a commitment by Mercedes to stay in F1.
The whole Mclaren saga has now faded and Mercedes are battling to progress.

I think this whole bedding in period is actually of a benefit to Mercedes. Had they bought Brawn, and won immediatley people would question the authenticity of Mercedes victories. As it stands Mercedes would obviously prefer this scenario to the one they are in now.

But lets not forget a few things.

Mercedes struggled initially with Mclaren taking nearly 4 years to get to winning ways.
They invested a ton of cash in McLaren, and they got their rewards in 98 99. However they then went through the tumultuous 2001-2003 engine blow up phase which was never fully recoverede until Mercedes took full control of Ilmor and renamed it MBHPE.

The precedent you see here is that of inital struggles overcome by timely interventions, and then steady progress until they become winners. This is the way Mercedes has shown it operates and it will continue with the GP team until it wins.

The 3 year winning plan has become 5, and Im sure after 5 years Mercedes will have won a couple if not more races(even if they are through pure luck). Who knows, but 1 thing is for certain is that Mercedes have the appetite and are getting stuck into this wholehearted.
More could have been done.
David Purley

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xpensive
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote: ....
Mercedes struggled initially with Mclaren taking nearly 4 years to get to winning ways.
...
Popular myth that one, isn't it? Fact is that Mercedes scored two podiums in their first season with McLaren and six in their second, while third season yielded seven podiums and three wins. Fourth season WDC & WCC, a pretty decent record I think?

As for MGP and their TP, I love Daimler for their engineerish approach, with the xeption for their Chrysler xperiment, but I admit to have very little respect for Ross Brawn, he would never gotten to where he is without his relationship with MrM.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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Ferraripilot
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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Different times X. See them for what they are and the investment Daimler has made. They are not dumb.

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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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Ferraripilot wrote:Different times X. See them for what they are and the investment Daimler has made. They are not dumb.
[...] In most respects I think it was pretty much like today, xcept the cars looked a little different. But the competition was basically the same, with three top teams to beat.
Last edited by Steven on 27 Oct 2011, 00:01, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: No personal comments please
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Mr.S
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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@ JET - If Mercedes cant win races in 4 years,that is by 2013 then there is no chance of them winning races in the next 40 years as well. Mercedes might as well pack up & throw the towel. Frankly in 5 years if Mercedes manage only 1-2 lucky wins which you consider a big success then I would rather see Mercedes sell this team & walk away. 1 or 2 lucky wins in 5 years is a GIGANTIC failure for Mercedes Benz/Michael Schumacher/Ross Brawn.

They have Bob Bell with Costa-Willis who have a 1 full season to gel & more. Willis has already started work so probably he probably have a little input on W03 anyway.

With this team & Mercedes/MSC if they get 1 or 2 lucky wins in 3 years then frankly I am ashamed to be a Mercedes fan & very sad that MSC chose to come back & put his reputation on the line. MSC chose to come back,get so much flak,take so much physical torture with all the travel at 43 odd & not have a RACE WINNING CAR. A 7 time world champion working his ass off 365 days a year having to drag a dog of a car is embarassing.

I would be disgusted as MSC & Merc fan. 2013 is the deadline year for me & maybe for a lot of fans.

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Ferraripilot
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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Look how long it took Red Bull to even FINISH races let alone finish 14th and 15th place. It took them years!! Toro Rosso won a race before Red Bull did! True story!

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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X

Who was there for Mclaren to beat? Williams lost Renault power and went backwards.
ferrari went through their own regenration phase and benneton went backwards after Brawn and Schumacher left the team.

What do we have on 2011?

Red Bull at their peak with Newey working the helm. McLaren chasing Red Bull and actually producing a car to beat the RB7 on occasion. Ferrari not far off these guys either with Fry an ex McLaren guru in charge of them now.

Thats 3 winning teams in the last 2 seasons.

What happened in 1994/5/6/7 X?

Im pretty sure it was only ever 2 teams ever in it Williams/Benneton or Williams/Ferrari. So how is it myth? Its far harder to win these days, a fact you will have to accept dear friend.
More could have been done.
David Purley

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Ferraripilot
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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Agreed JET. Much more difficult to be competitive now. Aero is on a whole new level as is suspension in how it relates to aero. The $$$$ investment is plenty more substantial which of course in-turn can buy expertise and *maybe* wins. Have to have the right people, which MB certainly does

Mr.S
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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RB5 was the quickest car in the 2nd half of the season & Red Bull could have won the WDC & WCC that year.


Red Bulls were the remants of the Jaguar team,a low mid-level team which never achieved anything,neither were Webber-Coulthard in the league of Michael Schumacher & Nico Rosbery & neither is Horner as good as Ross Brawn,

Honda was a big team with substantial resources,yes it had to be scaled down in a big way but still Honda were pumping a MASSIVE amount of money into that team for years.Brawn GP won the WDC & WCC in 2010 with the DDD which is as legal if not more than EBD. Plus they have Mercedes Benz,an automobile giant & who have been associated with Mclaren fore more than a decade.

Michael Schumacher-Ross Brawn & now Costa-Willis-Bob Bell. Already two consequtive solid 4th in the Championship. It is time to take the next step in 1 year,maybe 2. More than that is unacceptable to fans as well as Mercedes board. I read some German publication Auto-motor of whatever & it said Mercedes Benz demaned podiums in 2012,which should be the win.

Mercedes will not tolerate anything less than a race win in 2013. That & it is much easier now to break through because of RRA. Ferrari now dont spend 600-700 Million every year & you dont have to take a bankrupt team with no infrastructure. I WANT RESULTS.

I dont want MSC's comeback to become a waste,neither do I want to see Mercedes' reputation tarnished.

Mr.S
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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Ferraripilot wrote:Agreed JET. Much more difficult to be competitive now. Aero is on a whole new level as is suspension in how it relates to aero. The $$$$ investment is plenty more substantial which of course in-turn can buy expertise and *maybe* wins. Have to have the right people, which MB certainly does

Not really. It is much easier nowadays for new team. A team like Lotus can beat a Renault. That is the truth.

Nowadays you dont have Ferrari bringing new engines for every qualifying & races & pumping in 700 Million a year.It's much easier for new team. HONDA is a solid base,they pumped in millions. Mercedes have upgraded their staff to the limit of RRA.

They have Bob Bell,Willis,Costa & MSC/NICO & the best engine in the grid.What excuse do they have for failing??? Why should they not win in 2013???

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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Their first 3 season with McLaren yielded this....

4th (63 pts)
4th (49 pts)
4th (30 pts)

how can people get on Mercs back when McLaren could do no better? And thats with 30 years prior racing experience!

When faced with cold hard facts, and syphon the BS from the reality it paints a different picture to the negativity.
Mercedes will come good, of that Im certain.

The right team principal, the right drivers, the right owners and in time the right background staff to produce the winning car Mercedes so desperately seek.



When they win I can already hear the detractors saying its just a repainted Honda team.....

And Mr S, you really think Lotus is beating LRGP?
More could have been done.
David Purley

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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Ferraripilot wrote:Agreed JET. Much more difficult to be competitive now. Aero is on a whole new level as is suspension in how it relates to aero. The $$$$ investment is plenty more substantial which of course in-turn can buy expertise and *maybe* wins. Have to have the right people, which MB certainly does
Not just that but getting that final 0.5 seconds will be a huge mountain to climb.

People talking of smaller teams being competitive and over 3.5 seconds behind is all very well. But ask these guys to get to within 2 seconds and they will hit a brick wall.
More could have been done.
David Purley

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Cocles
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Joined: 02 Sep 2011, 13:27

Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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munudeges wrote:
Cocles wrote:The opposite of love is hate; indifference is what's right in between.
Nope, it isn't. It's easy to make that mistake, but it's a well known saying. :wink:
Eh... go check your thesaurus.

Actually here, I'll do it for you: http://thesaurus.com/browse/love?r=76&src=ref&ch=the

Anyway, back to the subject at hand. It'd be interesting to see McLaren's points during its first three seasons with Merc, but re-tallied to todays points reward system (down to 10th place, etc.). If I have some free time I'll do it, or maybe someone else can.

And it's so nice to see so much love on concern on this thread finally instead of vitriol. ;)
Last edited by Cocles on 18 Oct 2011, 21:57, edited 1 time in total.

marcush.
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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like it or not Brawn and Norby face a steady ,very cold headwind these days from the board.Zetsche has steted in public that current results are not acceptable.
I´m surprised those two are still in charge ,so Stuttgart is not really into hire and fire sort of human recource politics.(Gerhard Ungar who was the responsible guy for the LeMans flying silverarrows display is still a major force within HWA ,so loyalty is written in big letters here).
so I guess they all get the time to get the job done ...as long as they show seady improvements now.

Frankly speaking the impression is they stagnate ,but maybe that is a false view .
This years car seems to be a lot better than last years ,but unluckily RB,MCL and Ferrari have upped their game at the same rate ...so it was asking too much to close that gap.
The task is annoying the top 6 cars constantly .

Mr.S
Mr.S
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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I think this year's car has been MUCH worse than last year. No SWB or side-wise exhaust like stupid concepts were there last year & frankly RBR-FERRARI-Mclaren have no upped their game in a major. DRS+KERS have added 1 full second to the lap times & W02 is worse than W01.


Also I want to see MSC win & his comeback not going to waste. A couple pf podiums next year will hopefull make him extend & he might get 1 win in 2014(if he extends). 8th WDC is completely unrealistic so the least I want is to see MSC win a race.

If he doesn't & despite MERCEDES doing everything to work for it, I would want Ross Brawn to be fired immediately. I would probably take a hiatus from Formula 1 anyway like I took after 2006. Frankly MSC winning means a lot to me. With Nico & some rookie 3 years later I would just not feel the same about Mercedes Benz. I probably would not car half as much.