McLaren-Mercedes, 1995-97.

[TzeiTzei]

The McLaren chassis of those years were not as bad as one might think, in 1994 with the so bad-mouthed Peugeot engine, they still scored eight podiums, even without Ayrton Senna?

The '94 chassis was quite good. Hakkinen was running second at Aida and took second place on the grid at Monaco. This despite the fact that the engine was very much underpowered at the start of the season.

Anything else is purely academic, although the Peugeot engines did seem to lack power from what I remember. Why McLaren didn't give the relationship the time it needed I don't know, but McLaren probably thought Mercedes would give them more commercial opportunities as well as a decent engine. They were right on both counts.

Probably the biggest reason was that Ron Dennis couldn't stand Jean-Pierre Jabouille (who was in charge of the engine department). Also the fact that the engine was very fragile and lacked power didn't exactly help. Long time ago i read somewhere that Dennis got the feeling that Peugeot weren't as serious about their F1 program as he would have wanted. Sure the Peugeot engine developed quite well towards the end of the season (and was very competitive in the following years), but the damage was already done and McLaren were looking elsewhere. And there was mutual interest because Mercedes wanted to get a more competitive partner than what Sauber was.

But on the topic, i still think it was mostly the mediocre McLaren chassis that resulted to poor results in 1995 and 1996. McLaren were kind of lost with their raised nose consept, and didn't get it work until 1997. Then Newey came along and perfected the design.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Oh dear, Wikipedia has not been kind to the Peugeot powered mp4/9.

By the standards of McLaren's recent cars the MP4/9 was a disappointment, failing to win any races and hampered by poor reliability and performance from its Peugeot engine...As the season progressed the engines suffered regular, and frequently spectacular, failures and the team began to doubt Peugeot's commitment to the project. By late 1994 the team announced it had parted company with the engine supplier in favour of a long term deal with Mercedes.

Wiki on the mp4/9.

[munudeges]

Mercedes simply bought into Ilmor and told them to change the valve-covers.

They certainly did, but it was the most sensible thing to do really.

[xpensive]

Oh dear, Wikipedia has not been kind to the Peugeot powered mp4/9.
...

Yes I agree JET, it's really strange when you consider the they had eight podiums in their first and only season,
makes you wonder how they will judge other Formula One cars of late, with much less to show for results-wise?

Anyway, I think Peugeot underestimated the task, not realizing what was needed. Besides, Jabouille was an utter moron,
I recall him saying the split with McLaren was "a stroke of luck", the chassis was so bad, "you can tell by the big wing".

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

So Peugeot got progressively worse, and you are using that as a barometer of Mercedes involvement who got progressively better?

Au contraire once again mon ami.

There is a reason Mercedes are still in F1 and Peugeot are not, they have an appetite to be involved in a sport they once dominated. Nearly 20 years on and that appetite has only grown. Peugoets involvement was a knee jerk response to Renault domination in the mid 90s, hence why the dusted off group C engine was not cutting the mustard.

[xpensive]

But I doubt if buying an independent British company and inject a shitload of money in it, would have convinced the French that it was really a Peugeot-engine, even if they had won every race with it? Germans perhaps, but not the French, no way.

[Richard]

x - tell that to the team who were based at Enstone at the time.

[xpensive]

x - tell that to the team who were based at Enstone at the time.

Or to those wankers in Brackley, yeah, I think BMW had the most honest and credible approach of all the manufacturers,
the engine was actually a BMW and they kept the name Sauber for the chassis?

But anyway, re-branding an xisting engine the way Mercedes did is really nothing new, just consider the Ford Cosworth V8,
but perhaps re-branding a team takes some more doing, or at least that's the way it seems?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

So what have your surmised thus far X?

Because it seems you are having a pop at Mercedes for buying ilmor, and rebranding them accordingly(as is their right and happens all the time in the automotive world).

What I have learnt is that McLaren had 3 years of getting back to the top, and that is with their combined and updated expertise.
Also they couldnt do it all by themselves and required Mercedes investment and engines to get there.

I see that both these companies have come out of the partnership very well, with Mercedes now going it alone. In fairness they havent hit targets, but in fairness to Mercedes they are near exactly where they where when they started with McLaren in 95 through 96.

[xpensive]

...
I see that both these companies have come out of the partnership very well, with Mercedes now going it alone. In fairness they havent hit targets, but in fairness to Mercedes they are near exactly where they where when they started with McLaren in 95 through 96.

To read other posts than your own can sometimes be good for you, McLaren-Peugeot had eight podiums the season before Mercedes, how many podiums in the limelight has MGP enjoyed so far? But of course, they were different times...

[Richard]

x - your point explains the Merc GP problem perfectly. McLaren had a winning team before Merc bought into them. In contrast the hollow shell of the Honda team Merc bought in 2009 were chronic under achievers who had a one hit wonder in 2008.


Then there is the parallel of Benetton and Renault. They won a WDC in their first year, after that it was downhill all the way.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Precisely richard.

Its not as If Mercedes bought a team that had years of winning experience like McLaren. The main problem here is that some posters think a team of 450 can still achieve the results a team of 700+ can.

For whatever reason(RRA was a reason given, a valid one too) Mercedes stuck with 450 staff and didn't change much of the structures in place.
Once it was clear this wasnt going to work they set about changing this, employing Bell and then publicly stating they were going to hit the RRA limit followed by the signings of Willis and Costa.

If this is not a statement of intent, to at least challenge McLaren etc then I really dont know what else to say...

[Richard]

So can we conclude that mass market road car manufactures can't deliver successful F1 teams? They can be successful in providing engines, but not in running a team. Toyota, Ford, BMW, Honda, Renault have all tried and failed. Only Mercedes are still trying to get that elusive winning works team.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Fair assumption if you exclude Ferrari from that assessment.

Be that as it may, I don't think its reason to jump on Mercedes because they aren't winning, I personally see it as a reason to appreciate what they are doing is not easy.

[Richard]

JET - I chose my words carefully. Ferrari are hardly a mass market car manufacturer?

Yes, it does show that Merc are trying to what has beaten all other manufacturers.

Anyway, that's getting off topic. Back on topic, Renault-Benetton is the closest parallel with McLaren-Mercedes.