Mercedes GP 2011

[xpensive]

Brawn is simply uncomfortable that someone will find avenues of development his team can't think of, and he'd be right. Exhausts have always been critical to aerodynamics and that isn't going to stop now.

When I read the somewhat confusing statement from Ross Brawn, I was thinking along the lines of preparing for yet another xcuse, as if being pro-active with what might be useful to blame for a looming 2012 failure. Défaitiste if you wish?

[Cocles]

We seem to be treating Brawn's statement as something he made out of the blue without any context.

Autosport flat out said they asked Brawn about the situation with the exhaust regulations, and Brawn responded there may still be some loopholes that need to be sealed if the teams want the issue 100% sorted.

How is that confusing?

Optimism! ...Or at least Realism!

[MIKEY_!]

He's being careful. Remember the diffuser rules of '09. They had so many loopholes it made the whole thing a little pointless. He wants to avoid that confusion and keep things simple so he won't get left behind. It will also stop any messy disputes between teams.

[Richard]

I'd posted a comment on this earlier but it got binned in Giblet's tidy up.

This story is media hype. What Brawn has said is the same as any team would say. All rules have interpretations and when the rules change there is increased scope for loopholes.

ps - The DDD loophole was discovered by Super Aguri and got to Honda when someone switched teams. Barnaby Garood?? http://www.lasourcetechnologies.com/Personnel.html

[munudeges]

Brawn's engineers come up with an interpretation and hes cheating?

It all depends on whether the esteemed powers that be interpret the skid block as part of the floor, because that's what the double diffuser nonsense hinged on. It was tenuous in the extreme. To take that kind of risk you have to get tipped off that it is going to be passed.

[Richard]

mun - you've got that wrong. The DDD loophole was that holes must not be seen when viewed from below. Holes in the step could not be seen from below, hence provided a legal opening from under floor to top of floor. Nothing to do with the plank.

It was bloody obvious when you know about it, and to think that Super Aguri had that in their design but folded before being to exploit it. Those designers left and went to Honda, Toyota and Williams - the three teams with a DDD.

Its no more tenuous than the loophole about closed sections that allowed the F duct. Or was that a conspiracy theory too?

ps - yes the F-duct & DDD teams did know in advance that it was going to be allowed because they asked the FIA for clarification during the design process.

[raymondu999]

Rich - DId they really know? Remember McLaren brought an engine cover without an F-Duct to Bahrain in case the F-duct was pronounced illegal

[xpensive]

Brawn's engineers come up with an interpretation and hes cheating?

It all depends on whether the esteemed powers that be interpret the skid block as part of the floor, because that's what the double diffuser nonsense hinged on. It was tenuous in the extreme. To take that kind of risk you have to get tipped off that it is going to be passed.

Interesting part is that MrM publically pledged his support for this "innovation" long before Charlie Whiting was even asked.
I remember this clearly, as it was the first week of February, when I was in London and read about it in Autosport.

I recall thinking; Only some half-blurred shots in a magazine, but MrM has already made up his mind?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Again with conspiracy theories.

We have flogged this horse to death. Yet once again it rears it's head.

The DDD issue was openly discussed in august o8 during a meeting of technical delegates representing teams.
Brawn raised the issue, only for theissen of BMW(who very publicly gave up on 08 to focus on 09) to veto any such outline of the proposed rule amendment regarding the diffuser.
The dye was caste then! Not in february 09!

These being the facts of the matter I have yet to read anything about a spannerman and a president in cahoots. Let alone Toyota and Williams also sporting the same type of diffuser!
I guess mr m favoured them too...

[Richard]

On a fundamental level it was whether the skid block was a part of the floor or not.

errr... right. Whatever you say.

I see x also thinks it is about the definition of a slot or a hole.

The rest of the world will think it was about clause 3.12 regarding the vertical transition between the step plane and the reference plane that could not be seen when viewed from below.

More importantly WTF has this got to do with Mercedes 2011?

[beelsebob]

On a fundamental level it was whether the skid block was a part of the floor or not.

errr... right. Whatever you say.

I see x also thinks it is about the definition of a slot or a hole.

The rest of the world will think it was about clause 3.12 regarding the vertical transition between the step plane and the reference plane that could not be seen when viewed from below.

More importantly WTF has this got to do with Mercedes 2011?

Indeed, if it *had* got to do with whether the skid block was part of the floor or not it would quickly have been ruled illegal. After all, if the skid is part of the floor then part of the floor lies on a plane that isn't the reference plane or step plane... Thus clearly the car is illegal.

[munudeges]

A massive part of it was working out where the floor actually was. Brawn argued that the skid block section and the 'floor' should be considered individually and the 'holes' in the floor were simply gaps in the connecting planes.

What X is referring to is that these 'holes' that they had in there should be referred to as 'slots', gaps between the planes according to them. The viewing from below thing they came up with was nonsense because you could actually see the Brawn's suspension. As Rory Byrne, I think, said at the time:

"It's a play of words: (the three teams came up with) a section divided in three parts only to apply holes in the vertical intersection between the floor and the reference plane. But the regulations don't allow fully enclosed holes in the vertical intersection. There's even talk (in the regulations) of continuous, non-subdivided planes in the diffuser."

The other part to it was what was part of the diffuser and part of the rear crash structure.

Clearly all nonsense, but there we are. Mosley was declaring it legal before it had even been discussed. Given that they were the made illegal in the space of ten months for 2011 then you have to wonder why they were legal in the first place. The answer? It was a regulation minefield.

[Pierce89]

That was 2009, this is 2011. Discussion of the DDD belongs in another thread, as does Mercs purchase of Brawn in 2009.

Actually I disagree. I belive the whole 2009 Brawn(average car but only car built around a winning concept. Toyota and Williams are both on the record saying they found it after they'd mostly finalized their whole car's layout, so like the rest of field other than Brawn, couldn't optimise the DDD).
Their success in 2009 was mostly smoke and mirrors but Daimler didn't really know that etc. I think that is all very relevant to MGP's current situation. They've finally realized they didn't buy a top team and now they're trying to replicate the Red Bull approach of bringing in the biggest names money can buy. IMHO the problem doesn't lye at the top but in the meat of a team that's never had great engineering talent or depth since it's conception. I think MGP's employment drive should help more than the big names they've brought in. Hopefully my second favorite team will start to earn their spot in my favor, and hopefully my second favorite driver will have a competitive car to show his talents for the first time in his F1 career.
But really, 2009 is quite relevant.

[Mr.S]

Brawn's engineers come up with an interpretation and hes cheating?

It all depends on whether the esteemed powers that be interpret the skid block as part of the floor, because that's what the double diffuser nonsense hinged on. It was tenuous in the extreme. To take that kind of risk you have to get tipped off that it is going to be passed.

Same with the EBD non-sense as well,with the whole engine mapping & very costly for very small teams. EBD was clearly illegal & was banned mid-season,anyways maybe with Mclaren struggling & a slight doubt to Bull's title maybe they paid FIA.

NEWEY & PADDY LOWE brining FIA.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Flexing wings and floors are far more perplexing than the DDDs