Mercedes GP 2011

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Richard
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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errrr... so this is now a thread about "everything is illegal" ?

The inability to have any discussion of the Mercedes team in 2011 is stunning. This is the only team that needed its own thread because the vitriol was killing the car thread, I suppose that was a good thing because it moved the poison into this ringfenced cesspit.
Last edited by Richard on 25 Oct 2011, 11:58, edited 1 time in total.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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Moveable aero is more perplexing than a word play on a measurement rule yes. In my opinion anyway. That will not change anytime soon.
munudeges wrote: If the front wing is doing what some claim, which I doubt, then no. Apparently it's completely passive so what is anyone going to do about it? It's not an area of development I'd be putting too much work into to be honest because it's not going to pay you back much in lap time for the effort put in. Just ask McLaren.
No one knows how it works, other than its creators. So to say "
It's not an area of development I'd be putting too much work into to be honest because it's not going to pay you back much in lap time for the effort put in"
is beyond a joke.

How do you know? You dont.

Much like you said the MP4-26 was a disaster and McLaren had made a car even worse than the unraced MP4-18.

[...]
Last edited by Steven on 27 Oct 2011, 00:28, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed off-topic and personal comments
More could have been done.
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dren
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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munudeges wrote:If the front wing is doing what some claim, which I doubt, then no. Apparently it's completely passive so what is anyone going to do about it? It's not an area of development I'd be putting too much work into to be honest because it's not going to pay you back much in lap time for the effort put in. Just ask McLaren.
I think the idea behind the wing is to allow a lower static ride height per Scarbs analysis. This could net a nice increase in floor and front wing efficiency. Mercedes already has experience with passive systems, so they should have a good grip on this. Ride height and rake is a big area teams will be focusing on next year.
Honda!

Mr.S
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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If it really is possible to feed clean air to the diffuser then the so-called front wing F-Duct can surely be a great concept. Let's be honest W02 is not really build around that concept & will probably not be able to show the true potential of such an innovation.

If W03 was build around it,low nose & front wing everything build around a front F-duct which supplies a decent amount of clean air which the other teams wont have access to it,then it will be a substantial innovation.

Even 2 tenths mean a lo,3 tenths per lap is 3seconds every 10 laps & 18 seconds for a 60 lap race. That is W03 making up 18 seconds or race pace alone.Like I said,I expect atleast a 3rd with a few podiums & if they are within 0.5 of a second then it is definitely be realistically possible. Also with more downforce they will possibly see less tyre wear.

munudeges
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Much like you said the MP4-26 was a disaster and McLaren had made a car even worse than the unraced MP4-18.
It was. They had to pull out an unbelievable amount of work out before Australia and lift another design straight off another car. That's if anyone was paying attention, that is.

[...]
Last edited by Steven on 27 Oct 2011, 00:30, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed reply on deleted post

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dren
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Mr.S wrote:If it really is possible to feed clean air to the diffuser then the so-called front wing F-Duct can surely be a great concept. Let's be honest W02 is not really build around that concept & will probably not be able to show the true potential of such an innovation.

If W03 was build around it,low nose & front wing everything build around a front F-duct which supplies a decent amount of clean air which the other teams wont have access to it,then it will be a substantial innovation.

Even 2 tenths mean a lo,3 tenths per lap is 3seconds every 10 laps & 18 seconds for a 60 lap race. That is W03 making up 18 seconds or race pace alone.Like I said,I expect atleast a 3rd with a few podiums & if they are within 0.5 of a second then it is definitely be realistically possible. Also with more downforce they will possibly see less tyre wear.
Most of the air feeding under the tea tray to the diffuser is relatively clean already. Scarbs analysis of the blown front wing gives several possible reasons for blowing the front wing. The most advantageous is likely the ability to run with lower static ride height. The wing will stall at high speed reducing the force pushing the front dampers down, reducing the ride height. The car has to be run at a certain static ride height so the tea tray doesn't scrape at the max downforce ride height which is typically at the end of the straights. If the team can run a lower static ride height, the front wing and floor will be lower to the ground and generate more efficient downforce over the full length of the track.
Honda!

Mr.S
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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dren wrote:
Mr.S wrote:If it really is possible to feed clean air to the diffuser then the so-called front wing F-Duct can surely be a great concept. Let's be honest W02 is not really build around that concept & will probably not be able to show the true potential of such an innovation.

If W03 was build around it,low nose & front wing everything build around a front F-duct which supplies a decent amount of clean air which the other teams wont have access to it,then it will be a substantial innovation.

Even 2 tenths mean a lo,3 tenths per lap is 3seconds every 10 laps & 18 seconds for a 60 lap race. That is W03 making up 18 seconds or race pace alone.Like I said,I expect atleast a 3rd with a few podiums & if they are within 0.5 of a second then it is definitely be realistically possible. Also with more downforce they will possibly see less tyre wear.

Most of the air feeding under the tea tray to the diffuser is relatively clean already. Scarbs analysis of the blown front wing gives several possible reasons for blowing the front wing. The most advantageous is likely the ability to run with lower static ride height. The wing will stall at high speed reducing the force pushing the front dampers down, reducing the ride height. The car has to be run at a certain static ride height so the tea tray doesn't scrape at the max downforce ride height which is typically at the end of the straights. If the team can run a lower static ride height, the front wing and floor will be lower to the ground and generate more efficient downforce over the full length of the track.

Yes I will always thought the you will not see the full potential of it it W02,if W03 is build around it,then with a lose nose & new front wing build around this concept,you can get substantial benefits.2-3 tenths is a very VERY handy number in F1,amount to a big chunk time over a race.

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Cocles
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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xpensive wrote:Hate, hate, hate, that's all I get to hear when I dare to critisize MGP, when fact of the matter is that the only thing I trule "hate" is incompetence, in any shape or form.
X, your posts don't come across as criticism. When I first started reading this forum I was so surprised by your apparent hatred of Mercedes-Benz, that I actually forwarded some of your posts to my friends.

I understand you're disappointed in MBz and have little faith in their ability to pull themselves up, but your posts come across as if the Mercedes-Benz company has personally wronged you in some way. I honestly wondered at first if you were a former MBz employee who had been laid off.

If Mercedes GP won the Constructors Championship would that appease you? I sincerely don't know the answer to that question. Nothing this team does seems to make you happy, but I think most of us in this thread would love it if it did.

I don't mean to sound arbitrary. You seemed sincerely befuddled in your last post.

Perhaps if you could offer up some constructive criticism for the team, or exhibit some sort of faith in their ability, or even just appear happy they're in the sport, we'd stop shaking our bemused heads.

As it is right now, we really don't even need to read your posts; we already know what you're going to say.

TLDR: Mix it up a little. :)

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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xpensive wrote:Hate, hate, hate, that's all I get to hear when I dare to critisize MGP, when fact of the matter is that the only thing I truly "hate" is incompetence, in any shape or form.
Heres a question for you x.

If they are as incompetent as you would have us believe, and if what you say is true... why then are you not spitting this vitriol on the 8 teams below Mercedes GP?

Its a rhetorical question, you dont have to answer that as I think most posters already know the answer to it.
-------------

I think I found a youthful X making his point 10 years ago... :lol: .

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2ob1P_p29s[/youtube]
More could have been done.
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xpensive
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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Because the peanut-teams never made their pretentious ambitions public the way MGP did, but that's really beside the point, which is that whenever I see a Dead Man Walking, I get this uncontrollable urge to tell the whole wide world about it!
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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So because Mercedes say they have lofty ambitions, they are now easy prey for your stinging criticisms?

Like I have said before, if the criticism is constructive I have no issue with it. What I have issue with is the scatter gun approach you level at them. Doesn't matter what they do its wrong in your eyes.

Sold down the river by Mr M's spannerman or not, Mercedes GP have taken this whole thing seriously. And I want to know why you think Brawn, Costa, Bell and Willis will fail other than the teams owners are German or that you reserve venom for Brawn.

Personally, I see this as a great opportunity for Mercedes. Im more optimistic now than I have ever been, what with the exhausts blowing being banned for next year.

Why will Mercedes fail, X? What logical reasoning do you have to support this polarised stance of yours?
More could have been done.
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Richard
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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The above two posts encapsulate the thread perfectly.

I agree with x that MGP over hyped their potential and under achieved their investment. Changing leadership after 2 years shows they were off target and are be back at square one. But then x goes and ruins a valid point by allowing his uncontrollable urges to get personal about it, constantly dragging us back to 2009 to shout to everyone that Merc got it wrong. Yes, we know Merc got it wrong in 2009. Get over it. Now can we be objective about Merc 2011 please?

Then JET latches onto the emotional content driven by x’s uncontrollable urges and starts talking about x, not the topic at hand. Yes, we know x has odd urges. Get over it. Now can we be objective about Merc 2011 please?

Most people want to see a positive thread. The Merc situation is interesting and challenging. I wonder how that could work out? I wonder what is going on? No situation is as one sided as some people portray. Let’s have some critical appraisal, weighing up the pros and cons.
Last edited by Richard on 26 Oct 2011, 15:16, edited 2 times in total.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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Richard, my post was an attempt to get x to say something nice for a change. Getting the thread going again instead of constant bashing would be sublime...

And it lacked emotion if you ask me. :D

On topic, there still seem to be an awful lot of jobs going at merc gp....
More could have been done.
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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Say something nice about MGP? Let's see...I'm sure Daimler will find a buyer before the 2013 season, how about that?
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Richard
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Re: Mercedes GP 2011

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LOL - Forward looking and balanced is what I was getting at. We might not be right, I might not be right, this thread all conjecture, there aren't any absolutes.

Anyway, to take x's point. I'm not sure the team would commit to new leadership only to sell out?

The experience they have recruited should be able to show operational improvement in 2012, along with a programme of evolving the car during the season. Those guys can do that sort of thing in their sleep. They'd be incompetent if they couldn't get those basics right and their CV's show they have done it before. The real test will be in 2013 when they have developed their own car.

End of 2013 might be an realistic point to call it a day if the team showed no signs of improving under the new leadership.

(see how I put several "ifs" in here?)