The battle of flexing rear wings

[RH1300S]

Such a difference is suspicious for sure, but maybe the Ferrari engine is just the most powerfull, remember informations we have on engines are just rumors, it is possible that Ferrari made the best engine in terms of pure power, to the point of withstanding the drag. I'm one of the first to be offended when the red team is cheating, but on the other hand it is a shame to complain when you don't have a proof of anything, as the article explain teams are wondering "how they can achieve such speed without any movable aerodynamic device". If they're is nothing illegal this time, stop ranting and just try and do better...

At first it crossed my mind that maybe Ferrari were doing something clever with the airbox to gain extra horses (prancing ). But the power needed to increase your speed goes up by the square of the speed (if the aero doesn't change). It would take an improbable hike in power to get that extra speed....it has to be aero. The guys doing their overlays are (if I understand correctly), seeing a separation in the trace at the top end of the speed range, suggesting that the aero is changing. I.e. if the Ferrari was ahead everywhere on the curve, they would probably accept it was just more efficient..............in this case it suggests something is changing.

I think there is very little doubt that the Ferrari rear wing flexes; also no doubt that it is technically legal. Unless the FIA restate the rules, everyone will have to develop one.

[vyselegend]

On a second thought, I think you're right RH, the gap is too big to be explained by extra HPs, but still, I have a question:
What is the best torque range to achieve the best top speed? I've always heard that the highest is your speed on the exit of the turn, the highest it will be at the end of the straight. To be already fast exiting a turn requires good acceleration, wich I assume is obtained easyly with high torque in the low/mid rpm range, but if you move the torque to the high rpm range, won't it allow to run a longer 7th gear, thus obtaining more speed?

I hope my question isn't too confused...

[johny]

i don't think it should be, ok let's move torque range to higher revs in v8 it's on higher rpm but it doesn't allow to go faster

acceleration can't be because last turn is so fast

[DaveKillens]

I really don't know how Ferrari do it, and I'm sure a lot of officials in the FIA and competitors are also scratching their heads.
It may be just because they can run less wing, thus getting higher velocity on the long straight. But if they have some arcane method of lowering air resistance on the straights, then my hat's off to them, and Ferrari deserve a congratulations on doing a great job.
Personally, I believe most of that top end speed is due to less wing. And the tires may be punished for this on the long run, trying to keep up in the corners.

[RH1300S]

On a second thought, I think you're right RH, the gap is too big to be explained by extra HPs, but still, I have a question:
What is the best torque range to achieve the best top speed? I've always heard that the highest is your speed on the exit of the turn, the highest it will be at the end of the straight. To be already fast exiting a turn requires good acceleration, wich I assume is obtained easyly with high torque in the low/mid rpm range, but if you move the torque to the high rpm range, won't it allow to run a longer 7th gear, thus obtaining more speed?

I hope my question isn't too confused...

You are right, to a point.....every extra bit of speed you carry off a corner is helping you to your top speed sooner.

Where the trouble is brewing is that Ferrari's performance curve seems to separate as it goes faster. I.e if it was faster in a corner, then it's performance advantage would be quite linear compared to another car, which may have left the corner slightly slower. But Ferrari is increasing that performance gap as it's speed increases. Suggests that something is bleeding off drag.

[Tp]

I think the reason the Ferrari is that much faster down the straights is down to its aero-efficiency, its drag co-efficiency must be lower than that realtive to the other cars.

[manchild]

Aero efficency can't give any team such advantage in top speed. The main thing that influences top speed is rear wing. If team suspects that they can't beat rivals in slow and mid-slow corners than they opt for higher top speeds to compenaste what they loose in corners. That includes running lower angle of rear wing and longer gear ratios which is all good for top speed but bad for grip, handling and acceleration.

However, having flexible rear wing enables team to run normal gear ratios, same or even greater rear wing angle than teams with no flexible wing and to be faster on straights because rear wing flexes when it is needed the most.

[Tom]

I wonder if Ferrari are doing the ground effects lotus trick. making out that there speed comes from the wing (or diff in the Lotus case) when it really comes from the engine? (or ground effects)

[manchild]

I've separated aero efficiency in previous post in a way that wings are observed separately from rest of the bodywork (Ferrari's bodywork isn't more aero efficient than Renault's or at least not efficent enough to give any segnificant advantage).

I agree that all together wings infuence aero effciency but since Ferrari has much greater top speed it means that rear wing flexes improoving aero efficiency. So, Ferrari doesn't have better aero efficiency when it matters design of the car but only gets advantage from flexing of rear wing at high speeds.

[RH1300S]

No one is saying Ferrari does not have an efficient car.

If their car was that much more efficient than the others, you would see the difference in the speed traces all the way through it's acceleration in a linear manner. I'll say it again, the other teams are saying that the Ferrari behaves in a non-linear manner as it goes faster. The most obvious cause of this is a flexible aero part.

BTW - I couldn't help watching Fisi's front wing cam - there is no doubt at all that the flap of the main plane flexes to quite some degree. I suppose some teams will grumble louder than others Honda are grumbling quite a lot.....don't forget they got pulled up a few years back because their rear wing was flexing and closing the slot gap........they obviously feel pretty sore still

[kilcoo316]

Either way, I think Ferrari should be applauded for simply out thinking the other teams and designing a better aerodynamic system within the limits laid out by the rules.

[manchild]

Either way, I think Ferrari should be applauded for simply out thinking the other teams and designing a better aerodynamic system within the limits laid out by the rules.

Situation is a bit gray rather than black and white. Flexible wings are known for their efficiency for years and I'm sure that other teams would use them if they weren't scared from FIA checkups. Obviously, Ferrari wasn't scared because they knew (somehow ) that FIA won't punish them. Even after teams complained FIA gave Ferrari only a hint to change front wings which proved their illegality in first two races (why else would FIA ask team to change something on car if they didn't found it illegal?).

Problem is in fact that basic checkups done after the race are not as detailed as checkups after official protest. For some reason other teams are not filling official protests and Ferrari wing remains unanalyzed.

Basically, that is like knowing that some team uses automatic gearbox and not making official protest. Basic post-race checkups couldn't tell a thing about it and car would be officially legal because the level and depth of post race checkups in minimal. However, only after official protest and dismantling of gearbox the definitive truth could be know.

That is why for the moment flexing wing is “not found guilty yet” rather than “completely innocent” – there was no trial so there is no definitive verdict.

[Sknguy-]

All the teams in one way or another take advantage of the rules. I noticed in a rearward onboard camera shot that the William's winglets were lifting as the speed increased. I'm not a fan of these obscure tricks, but I do know you can't win races by virtue of simply straight-line speed.

Looking at the best sector times at Catalunya for qualifying you see Schumacher and Massa respectively the first and second fastest in the first sector. In the Second sector they slip to third and tenth, respectively. And in the third sector they are ninth and tenth fastest.

The Renaults or Alonso and Fisichella in the first sector were fifth and third, respectively. In the second sector first and second. And in the third sector second and first, respectively.

Simple straight line speed won't make or break a performance. Because aerodynamics have to be efficient in more directions than simply a straight line. There's aerodynamics in cornering as well as accounting for wind speeds and directions, which can detract from aerodynamic efficiencies. The flexible wings will give some advantage, but I don't think enough to dominate a race. Specially not on an undulating, twisty circuit. I think the more important point about the protests of the Ferrari front wings was that everyone must play by a consistent set of rules. The Honda goofup of last year converted my thinking. If you have be "creative" with the rules, you don't deserve to race. Bending the rules is not honest engineering.

[kilcoo316]

I'm sure that other teams would use them if they weren't scared from FIA checkups. Obviously, Ferrari wasn't scared because they knew (somehow ) that FIA won't punish them.

That is one of the most niave and stupidest statements ever seen on here.


All the teams use flexi wings, I know for a fact of one team (a very mid-grid team at that) asking their CFD/FEA suppliers to incorporate a composite flexure aeroelastic model. To suggest that McLaren, Williams, Renault, Toyota, Honda and the others are not designing controlled flexure into their cars is pure ignorance and anti-ferrari at its finest. Your brighter than that Manchild, quit letting your bias obstruct your judgement.


Since the cars are within the letter of the law, Ferrari have simply done it better than the rest. Honda just have a batch of sourer grapes than the rest or are jealous that Ferrari know how to bend the rules without blatant cheating - see hidden fuel tanks for reference .


Damn, imagine the grief Colin Chapman would have come in for on this forum if he'd worked for ferrari.

[manchild]

That is one of the most niave and stupidest statements ever seen on here..

Kilcoo, your manners are really out of line - again!
Please concentrate on topic not on your personal opinion about me. What you wrote about downshifting without braking wasn't any good too but no one replied you in such tone and others including me tried to explain why rather than to say "That is one of the most niave and stupidest statements ever seen on here".

Ferrari was the only team in 2006 questioned by the rest of the teams when it matters flexibilty so if you think that I'm biased for sharing opinion with 11 teams than you should really think about your own bias to Ferrari. I'm certain that Mclaren or Honda wouldn't hesitate one minute to condemn flexing of Renault wings if they thought it is obvious.

Story that all teams use flexing wings was launched by Ross Brawn and becked up by no one else. It was just poor attempt from Ferrari to justify themseves by saying "we're legal because all others are illegal just like us".

What Ferrari does is not bedning ruels but pure cheating and they get away with it only because of nepotism from FIA. Colin Chapman was bending rules but never got close to cheating so I'm sure if he was alive now he'd work for any F1 team but Ferrari