Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Raptor22
Raptor22
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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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xxChrisxx wrote:
Raptor22 wrote:Diesel does have more energy per unit mass but it burns slower due to longer and bigger molecules that makes up Diesel - C8 to C12 HC chain s vs C4 to C8 chains for petrol/gasoline.
Raptor, see above. The energy per unit mass is lower for diesel 44MJ/kg vs 47MJ/kg. The energy per unit volume (energy density) is higher.

Sorry mate

energy per unit mass or per unit volume is higher for diesel than petrol.

petrol is around 44-45MJ/Kg or 32-35MJ/L
Diesel is around 45-47MJ/KG or 37-39MJ/L

Its a function of density. High alkylate fuels (AVGAS, F1 race fuel) tend to the higher end of the energy.

Roy, read your article, agreed 100%.

xxChrisxx
xxChrisxx
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Joined: 18 Sep 2009, 19:22

Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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Raptor22 wrote:
xxChrisxx wrote:
Raptor22 wrote:Diesel does have more energy per unit mass but it burns slower due to longer and bigger molecules that makes up Diesel - C8 to C12 HC chain s vs C4 to C8 chains for petrol/gasoline.
Raptor, see above. The energy per unit mass is lower for diesel 44MJ/kg vs 47MJ/kg. The energy per unit volume (energy density) is higher.
Sorry mate

energy per unit mass or per unit volume is higher for diesel than petrol.

petrol is around 44-45MJ/Kg or 32-35MJ/L
Diesel is around 45-47MJ/KG or 37-39MJ/L
Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals - John B Heywood. Table D.4 Page 915.
Image

Read the top two lines and then berate me for being sad enough to scan it.
Please note that HHV and LHV are not a range, they are two separate measures of the same thing.

Two rules.
1. I am never wrong.
2. If I am wrong, see rule 1. :wink:

Reca
Reca
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Joined: 21 Dec 2003, 18:22
Location: Monza, Italy

Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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FWIW, this is the percentage of time spent above a certain rpm by Vettel on his pole laps on different tracks (selection is purely random amongst the ones I had available already analyzed...):
Image

The dotted lines are relative to "on throttle" areas (= I removed parts of lap corresponding to decelerations), while the solid lines are for areas "on throttle" and with speed > 130km/h, arbitrarily picked as speed at which acceleration stops to be grip limited and is power limited.
Likely the actual value is different, possibly higher (and varies on various tracks, or even corner by corner, depending by tyres/tarmac aero setup, lateral acceleration etc) but as first approximation for a reference I decided to play safe, knowing that if it was higher it would mean to further move the solid lines to higher %.

As you can see the engine spends roughly 85% of power limited accelerations revving above 16k, and around 50% (slightly more in some tracks, slightly less in others) above 17k.


To complement that, this is rpm vs speed for Turkey (points from on throttle areas only), each line obviously represents a different gear, from 2nd to 7th (velocity plot is a bit filtered while rpm is not, that's why some data, especially corresponding to gear changes, don't exactly match the proportion):
Image
It clearly shows again how the engine stays in basically the uppermost 2-2.5k rpm, except in low/medium speed areas in low gears when obviously grip is what limits the acceleration.

Worth analyzing in this graph the overlap of 2nd and 3rd gear, with the data points highlighted in red corresponding to red areas of track map, clearly areas where acceleration wasn't purely longitudinal but composed.
In these areas, even if speed was low enough to potentially use 2nd gear, Vettel preferred to stay on the longer ratio, keeping engine at lower rpm, as anyway he couldn't have used the additional power that it would have had in 2nd.
That way, even if probably the power available could still overcome the grip, the excess was smaller and the delivery smoother, more controllable.

These are the circumstances where a wide usable power band is helpful, allowing to keep a longer gear, letting the rpm drop to 12-13k, with still enough power to exploit the grip, but not much more, so that the throttle control is easy and the grip increment more accurately followed.

Ideally one would want the power available in that rpm range at WOT to be roughly as much as grip allows to use and also the increment with rpm to match nicely the grip increment that will arrive thanks to increment of speed (thus of downforce) and reduction of lateral acceleration.
In that ideal situation all the driver has to do is just floor the throttle and be done with it not having to worry anymore about power delivery, the closer you get to that ideal, the better. (as rule of thumb, the less a driver has to do, the less can go wrong...)

If the engine lacks power in that low rpm range and the driver is forced to drop to a shorter gear, all becomes more difficult with following acceleration being strongly dependent on control, via throttle, of a peaky power delivery thus way more difficult to get right and exploit all the available grip.
In theory the difference between these two scenarios is small (or even non-existent if we assume the perfect driver with perfect throttle control) but in practice in real life it can change a lot on performance, on the single lap and, even more, on repeated performance lap after lap, on tyre wear and so on.

In other parts of lap though, the power available under 15.5k-16k, is scarcely relevant and only the uppermost 2k rpm matter as that's where the engine is used.
Needless to point out that you don't see data points overlapping two different gears in the rest of the graph, at each speed Vettel is always selecting the shortest gear available, to keep engine at the highest possible rpm, as close as possible to peak power (which for current F1 engines is presumably very close to 18k).

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machin
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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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Nice post Reca; a good illustration that the teams set gearing to make use of the rev range in which the engine has highest power.

Another good example from "everyday life" comes from my other passion; cycling. You can generate maximum torque at zero revolutions (try holding your rear brake on and put your weight on one pedal and pull up on the handle bars allowing you to really push down on the one pedal) -lots of torque, but no movement, and hence no power. At the other end of the range is a speed of about 130-150rpm where you can barely spin your legs fast enough, let alone actually put any pressure on the pedals -try this by supporting your rear wheel off the ground (on an indoor trainer or similar) and see how fast you can spin the wheel; lots of movement, but no torque and hence no power.

Clearly somewhere inbetween those two extremes is a point where you can generate reasonable torque and reasonable speed; and that's the point of maximum power (power = Torque x speed).

Now go out for a ride and try and climb a fairly easy hill as fast as you can -first try it in a gear where your legs are barely turning, then in gear where your legs are turning at 150rpm -in either case you'll barely get anywhere. Now try it in a gear where you're pedalling at somewhere in the region of 80 to 90 rpm (where you'll generate close to peak power) -you'll get up that hill nice and quick!
COMPETITION CAR ENGINEERING -Home of VIRTUAL STOPWATCH

DumHed
DumHed
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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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I rode a bicycle on a dyno once, and made 1.3hp :)

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strad
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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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This is one that always baffles me....I feel that most of the upper end torque/power in a modern F1 engine, is not so much a factor of internal combustion as having the mass spinning at close to 18,000 RPM.
They make seem to make very little power below about 7000 RPM.
Look at those starts by Webber,,he was launching at 13,000 RPM. :shock:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Raptor22
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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quote="Raptor22"]
xxChrisxx wrote:
Raptor22 wrote:Diesel does have more energy per unit mass but it burns slower due to longer and bigger molecules that makes up Diesel - C8 to C12 HC chain s vs C4 to C8 chains for petrol/gasoline.
Raptor, see above. The energy per unit mass is lower for diesel 44MJ/kg vs 47MJ/kg. The energy per unit volume (energy density) is higher.
Sorry mate

energy per unit mass or per unit volume is higher for diesel than petrol.

petrol is around 44-45MJ/Kg or 32-35MJ/L
Diesel is around 45-47MJ/KG or 37-39MJ/L[/quote]

Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals - John B Heywood. Table D.4 Page 915.
Image

Read the top two lines and then berate me for being sad enough to scan it.
Please note that HHV and LHV are not a range, they are two separate measures of the same thing.

Two rules.
1. I am never wrong.
2. If I am wrong, see rule 1. :wink:[/quote]


Your source is WRONG!
Diesel A/F of 14:1???!! I think that text book needs an errata.
Trolling through the QC's I have in front of me, I can see your source is very very wrong

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machin
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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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strad wrote:This is one that always baffles me....I feel that most of the upper end torque/power in a modern F1 engine, is not so much a factor of internal combustion as having the mass spinning at close to 18,000 RPM.
The only thing that accelerates a vehicle is the power or torque (depending on which method you want to use to calculate that acceleration). Rotating mass is a bad thing, and the teams will do all they can to minimise it.
They make seem to make very little power below about 7000 RPM.
True; everything is optimised for making as much power as possible in the 15-18krpm range; high lift cams, long duration cams, big valves, big bore inlets and exhausts etc.
Look at those starts by Webber,,he was launching at 13,000 RPM. :shock:
As Reca said before; its all a balnacing act; you need to feed in the power gently to ensure you don't spin the wheels, but also you don't want to let the engine "bog down" or "come off cam" and fall into the area where it makes very little power...
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xxChrisxx
xxChrisxx
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Joined: 18 Sep 2009, 19:22

Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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Raptor22 wrote: Your source is WRONG!
Diesel A/F of 14:1???!! I think that text book needs an errata.
Trolling through the QC's I have in front of me, I can see your source is very very wrong
That is the A/F(stoich), for a diesel fuel with the average chemical composition of approx CnH1.8n.

It's an empirically derived number. But let us do a little chemistry.

Typical diesel fuel oil, by % weight.
86.5% C
13.2% H
0.3% S.
To make things easier we'll ignore the sulphur.

86.5/12=7.21 where 12 is the molecular weight of carbon.
So our ratio of C:H is C7.21H13.2.

CxHy + a(O2+0.79/0.21N2) -> xCO2 + y/2H2O + a*0.79/0.21N2
where a=x+y/4

a= 7.21 + 13.2/4 = 10.51

underlined are molecular weights.
AFR = a(O2+0.79/0.21*N2)/fuel
AFR = 10.51 (32 + 28*0.79/0.21) / (86.5+13.2)
= 10.51 * 137.33 / 99.7
= 14.42

14.4:1 AFR(s) for diesel.


Now please try to think a bit before you post, and read the book instead of bashing it without having even a semblance of a clue. You may learn something.

EDIT: Removed the more colourful parts of the response.

Reca
Reca
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Joined: 21 Dec 2003, 18:22
Location: Monza, Italy

Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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strad wrote: This is one that always baffles me....I feel that most of the upper end torque/power in a modern F1 engine, is not so much a factor of internal combustion as having the mass spinning at close to 18,000 RPM.
They make seem to make very little power below about 7000 RPM.
Look at those starts by Webber,,he was launching at 13,000 RPM. :shock:
Image

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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I don't know what you see in that graph but I see that Vettle had better traction...and I may have a clue why.
Last race they noted that when Louie did his practice starts, he did them from the second position on the grid,,,where he would wind up starting. Do you think that perhaps Webber and some others do their practice starts from a spot that is unlike the spot they will actually start from?
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Raptor22
Raptor22
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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xxChrisxx wrote:
Raptor22 wrote: Your source is WRONG!
Diesel A/F of 14:1???!! I think that text book needs an errata.
Trolling through the QC's I have in front of me, I can see your source is very very wrong
That is the A/F(stoich), for a diesel fuel with the average chemical composition of approx CnH1.8n.

It's an empirically derived number. But let us do a little chemistry.

Typical diesel fuel oil, by % weight.
86.5% C
13.2% H
0.3% S.
To make things easier we'll ignore the sulphur.

86.5/12=7.21 where 12 is the molecular weight of carbon.
So our ratio of C:H is C7.21H13.2.

CxHy + a(O2+0.79/0.21N2) -> xCO2 + y/2H2O + a*0.79/0.21N2
where a=x+y/4

a= 7.21 + 13.2/4 = 10.51

underlined are molecular weights.
AFR = a(O2+0.79/0.21*N2)/fuel
AFR = 10.51 (32 + 28*0.79/0.21) / (86.5+13.2)
= 10.51 * 137.33 / 99.7
= 14.42

14.4:1 AFR(s) for diesel.


Now please try to think a bit before you post, and read the book instead of bashing it without having even a semblance of a clue. You may learn something.

EDIT: Removed the more colourful parts of the response.

no need to edit it Chris, I read it long before you editted it. You need to climb out of your own arse and realise when your leg is being pulled.

I understand stoichiometry of fuels. The rub is that diesels run lean not at Stioc. Theres currently work on Stoic Diesels but there are none running in that condition. The LeMans Diesels run closer to Stoic than passengar car diesels but they are still lean.

done debating this point with you

xxChrisxx
xxChrisxx
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Joined: 18 Sep 2009, 19:22

Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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Raptor22 wrote:I understand stoichiometry of fuels. The rub is that diesels run lean not at Stioc.
And you determine if something is lean or rich... how?

:?: :?: :?:
If you understand it, why did you scoff at diesels stoichiometric AFR being 14.4:1 :?: :?: :?:

volarchico
volarchico
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Joined: 26 Feb 2010, 07:27

Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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Torque and Horsepower, please...

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strad
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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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We left that a looooong time ago,,,,as usual
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss