McLaren with Honda engines in 2014

[ced381]

Interesting topic here, but Honda isn't in my opinion the company with the biggest turbocharging experience. Although they built some pretty impressive turbo engines in the ‘80s, things have changed now. How many production turbo engines have they made in the recent years? Honda is probably the best company when it comes to making big horsepower with small displacement, but they usually achieve it without turbocharging.

You think they'll be able to build something as powerful and reliable as what we could expect from Renault, Mercedes & maybe Cosworth? Maybe they'll ask Illmor for some technical help. I think Honda [if they do come back to F1] & Ferrari will struggle at first with their turbo engines.

I still wish VAG will someday join F1...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@giblet

There was a rumour that McLaren was looking at nabbing the BMW engine programme in late 2009 early 2010.
It was quickly dismissed.

Problem I have with McLaren going alone is two-fold. First that it would be prohibitively expensive for McLaren who themselves aren't immune to Market slumps and economic gyration. The costs would eat into any profit and be a massive hammer blow to both McLaren cars and McLaren F1 R&D budgets.
Secondly, McLaren have historically never made their own engines. It is not in the brand DNA so to speak. So why risk leveraging the company just for the luxury and pride of having your name on the covers?

Oh, nearly forgot. What if the forged ahead and the engine is uncompetitive? There is no certainty that it will be a front runner.

Personally I think they should keep going as they are and once the car company is fully up and running and churning out cars to the levels of Ferrari should they then sit down and mull the issue.

[Raptor22]

@giblet

There was a rumour that McLaren was looking at nabbing the BMW engine programme in late 2009 early 2010.
It was quickly dismissed.

Problem I have with McLaren going alone is two-fold. First that it would be prohibitively expensive for McLaren who themselves aren't immune to Market slumps and economic gyration. The costs would eat into any profit and be a massive hammer blow to both McLaren cars and McLaren F1 R&D budgets.
Secondly, McLaren have historically never made their own engines. It is not in the brand DNA so to speak. So why risk leveraging the company just for the luxury and pride of having your name on the covers?

Oh, nearly forgot. What if the forged ahead and the engine is uncompetitive? There is no certainty that it will be a front runner.

Personally I think they should keep going as they are and once the car company is fully up and running and churning out cars to the levels of Ferrari should they then sit down and mull the issue.

I appreciate your point of view and n some areas I think you make valid points .e.g. the risk and financial outlay.

Howeer I never disagreed with those sentiments, I simply disagree that you feel it not a competency that McLaren has. I disagree because they have a history of playinga pivotal role in the deisgn and development of engines they have used in the past.
The Techniques d' Avant Gade (TAG) Porsche engines used from 1984 to 1987.
The Honda engines used from 1988 to 1992, the Ford HB7 used in 1993. The empty promise that was teh Peugeot engine and then the development of the Ilmor Mercedes engines.
Sure there is a difference in specing and engine and tuning what you have compared to casting, maching, assembling testing etc, but those are skill that can be bought on the openmarket.

Where I feel their own engine would be still borne is in that they simply could produce sufficient of the engines to make teh investment worthwhile unless they could produce a production version for sale with their raod cars.

It is an economic problem, not a technical competance problem.

[ESPImperium]

And i doubt that McLaren will see their Merceded deal out, i can see them with a rather heavy and underpowered RA808E powerplant for 2013...

Agree with your analysis. On a technical level you say the Honda V8 is heavy. Is it really over the minimum weight limit? I thought all 2.4L-era engines had to be made extra beefy to get up to the minimum engine weight.

They all were, but the Honda with all its ancilaries and cooling needs was as much more heavier than the other contempory engines out there. Also the Installation of the engine was a bit out of whack i remember Ross Brawn saying on occasion when they had the piss poor RA108 chassis.

It wasnt the easiest engine to work with, it was heavy and was also slightly underpowered, however it was the best on fuel efficency if i remember correctly. Whitch sounds wrong to me.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

To use an example, I'm fully aware how close MBHPE and McLaren work. They have to if the package is to be successful. But translating ideas or asking for specs does not mean that they have the capacity to go out and build it. Nor does it mean that McLaren have better ideas. In essence they are referencing ideas with mercedes know how.

I think McLaren would do rather well making their own engines. But there is no guarantee of that and certainly, for the outlay required you would expect a smallish company to KNOW they would be recieving better than what was available if they burn the cash needed.

It's not a slur on McLaren, because with the right planning I'm sure in time they can match the best. It's a realistic viewpoint that right now, McLaren building their own engines is a pipe dream as much as it is a financial gamble of epic proportions. They can and probably will build their own engines one day, but like I said they need to be selling ferrari levels of cars before this even becomes a logical business plan.

And as giblet suggests, you can snipe a few key members of staff by waving a cheque book

[Richard]

They'd be best to buy into an existing engine supplier and develop a team to support that engine in a lower formula for a year or so while developing their 2014 engine for a smaller team in F1.

Then use it in the McLaren team once they've a few years of development and support under their belts. They can also use in a GT version of the 12C, there'll be a few people wanting to burn cash to have a real F1 engine in their road car.

[Pandamasque]

Interesting topic here, but Honda isn't in my opinion the company with the biggest turbocharging experience. Although they built some pretty impressive turbo engines in the ‘80s, things have changed now. How many production turbo engines have they made in the recent years? Honda is probably the best company when it comes to making big horsepower with small displacement, but they usually achieve it without turbocharging.

You think they'll be able to build something as powerful and reliable as what we could expect from Renault, Mercedes & maybe Cosworth?...

Funnily enough, of all the manufacturers that you mentioned Honda seem to be the only one that has a current turbocharged V6 racing engine. In fact they have two, one for Indycar 2012 and the other for LMP2.

[FW17]

An engine development project for F1 is going to cost about 250 million euros, Mclaren cars sales turnover from selling 4500 cars will be 810 million euros. I dont see Mclaren simply being able to afford such a project.

Engine development needs a tonne of data, data that cannot be bought or that can be carried over by staff.
Engine development needs innovation something engine giants such as BMW, Illmore, Renault, Honda have gained by having a R&D team that is decades old attributed by a few cases Gilles Simon who add the leadership to the team but not the core strength.
Engine building is a core strength of companies like FIAT, Ferrari, VW, Renault, not so much for Aston Martin, Lotus etc.
F1 engine is an even bigger animal to handle, hence there is noway Mclaren is going to be able to start and succeed with their own engine project for f1.
If they want their own engines they will need to buy a smaller engine company and build mclaren values into it. Still finding the project for F1 is almost impossible and unnecessary.

Sure there is a difference in specing and engine and tuning what you have compared to casting, maching, assembling testing etc, but those are skill that can be bought on the openmarket.

Wonder which open market has metal matrix composites, AlBeMet technology etc in the open. BMW used cylinder linings from road cars for F1 engines - wonder if that is available in the open market too.

[Raptor22]

There may be truth in the first two lines of your post.
The rest is very cahllengable.
Engine building is a matter of tooling. One does not need to own your own foundry to design and race your own engine.

Tonnes of data needed? I mean really, How many engines as McLAren used in their history in F1? Do you really believe they don;t keep data on each and every engine? Really?
Somehow they can design ECU maps but shortsightedly lack the mechanical engineering knowledge to design an engine block, cyclinder heads and dry sump.

Why is an F1 engine an even bigger animal to handle for a compnay that has been racing in F1 for 48 years? Especially a V6 turbo limited to around 11,000rpm?
they have data,
experience
foundry facilities within an hour of Woking
Have had very high tech engine partners for the last 30 yrs in F1, all of whom they have played a significant role in development of those engines.

Histroy and track record says they have the capability to design an engine to their spec.
Resource availability in England shows that they can have it built close by without needing to invest in an engine manufacturing plant.

which open market has metal matrix composites? YOu are kidding right. CDI's can be purchased freely once you have a clearance certificate to purchase those goods. Even Universities can purchase MMC, UHM carbon composites, smart materials, etc etc. Its just a matter of paperwork.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Raptor,

Designing an ECU map isn't the most challenging task. Sure F1 is different to normal cars, but my old S2000 could have it's map changed on my mates laptop with him inputting the numbers. The chip wasn't change at all... Just rejigged and I had 8bhp more
This isn't designing a chip for universal use, for that though you only need look at what the Chinese can do for a few quid.

Bottom line is making an ECU is far removed from designing and building a 1.6 litre V6 turbo that will live with mercedes, Ferrari and Renault units.

Too much too soon. Be patient

[FW17]

Somehow they can design ECU maps but shortsightedly lack the mechanical engineering knowledge to design an engine block, cyclinder heads and dry sump.

If it was so simple i wonder why it costs Renault 120 million euros in the current engine freeze and why there are only 4 manufacturers are in f1

[Pierce89]

Somehow they can design ECU maps but shortsightedly lack the mechanical engineering knowledge to design an engine block, cyclinder heads and dry sump.

How does electronic mapping translate into physically building an engine? Not a very good line of reasoning, there. Even BMW's first motor was heavy and underpowered compared to the 2000 Ferrari and Merc. Mclaren could probably build an F1 engine but it would cost them way more than a Merc engine deal and probably also cost them in performance terms.

Mclaren would have to build an F1 engine dept. from scratch. They better be started already if they plan to build their own in 2014, but I personally believe they'll stick with Merc for quite a while.

[beelsebob]

Somehow they can design ECU maps but shortsightedly lack the mechanical engineering knowledge to design an engine block, cyclinder heads and dry sump.

How does electronic mapping translate into physically building an engine? Not a very good line of reasoning, there. Even BMW's first motor was heavy and underpowered compared to the 2000 Ferrari and Merc. Mclaren could probably build an F1 engine but it would cost them way more than a Merc engine deal and probably also cost them in performance terms.

Mclaren would have to build an F1 engine dept. from scratch. They better be started already if they plan to build their own in 2014,

I think you misunderstand how much electronic control of when things are happening inside the engine is tied to the physical design of the engine, and how much knowledge of the physical workings of the engine McLaren need to be able to get that software right. Not only that, but McLaren also have experience of physically building reasonably powerful engines (though not quite at F1 levels) – the MP4-12C's engine is an in house job remember. Not only that, but they have a deep understanding of Mercedez's engine.

The bottom line is that yes, they would have to invest money in learning, and getting an engine department going... But... you're massively overblowing the effort they would need to make. They're probably the best position group of people out there to attack the problem of a new F1 engine design out there.

[majicmeow]

Most manufactures have more turbochargine experience than any of the 4 current suppliers. If you went purley on past history, you'd have to say that Toyota, Nissan or Audi would be near the top of the field as far as companies who've fielded turbo engines in racing, not to mention decades of turbo road cars.

BMW currently holds the title as most turbo'ed manufacturer I believe... a 1.6L BMW turbo would be a monster of a motor, though not much current racing pedigree with turbos.

[FW17]

How does electronic mapping translate into physically building an engine? Not a very good line of reasoning, there. Even BMW's first motor was heavy and underpowered compared to the 2000 Ferrari and Merc. Mclaren could probably build an F1 engine but it would cost them way more than a Merc engine deal and probably also cost them in performance terms.

Mclaren would have to build an F1 engine dept. from scratch. They better be started already if they plan to build their own in 2014,

I think you misunderstand how much electronic control of when things are happening inside the engine is tied to the physical design of the engine, and how much knowledge of the physical workings of the engine McLaren need to be able to get that software right. Not only that, but McLaren also have experience of physically building reasonably powerful engines (though not quite at F1 levels) – the MP4-12C's engine is an in house job remember. Not only that, but they have a deep understanding of Mercedez's engine.

The bottom line is that yes, they would have to invest money in learning, and getting an engine department going... But... you're massively overblowing the effort they would need to make. They're probably the best position group of people out there to attack the problem of a new F1 engine design out there.

What you are saying is Microsoft could do what Intel does.