The battle of flexing rear wings

[zac510]

That Ferrari did not accuse other teams first in 2006 is not an admission of guilt on their part.

[RacingManiac]

Renault's front wing was and still is flexing.....on board shot from yesterday was more than clear enough to see that....

[kilcoo316]

What you wrote about downshifting without braking wasn't any good too

Ferrari was the only team in 2006 questioned by the rest of the teams when it matters flexibilty.

Story that all teams use flexing wings was launched by Ross Brawn and becked up by no one else. It was just poor attempt from Ferrari to justify themseves by saying "we're legal because all others are illegal just like us".

What Ferrari does is not bedning ruels but pure cheating and they get away with it only because of nepotism from FIA. Colin Chapman was bending rules but never got close to cheating so I'm sure if he was alive now he'd work for any F1 team but Ferrari

- I'll stand by my downshift without braking comment.

- As the other teams have not got it done as well as ferrari, if they can't get it right - they want to ensure they aren't disadvantaged.

- I'm telling you I know for a FACT of a mid-grid team asking for the stuff to be built into their CFD/FEA solvers for integrated aeroflex design.

- No, its ferrari building the fastest car they can that complies with the rules as they are written, and well done to them. Every other team is at it, your bias is just blinding you to that.

[scarbs]

This practice isnt restricted to ferrari and isnt news.
Most teams adopt flexible aero-elastic wings, one team (no not ferrari) even uses springs inside the wing to cheat the load test and still move at higher speed. I have been been told so by the teams aero personnel.

I can also support Kilcoos comment on CFD now incorporating aero elasticity into its simulations as a FACT.

Due to the lack of a positive testing method, at the moment the FIA have accepted that if a wing meets the exisiting static tests then the wing is declared legal.
It would appear ferraris solution is to make the the wing deflect in a non linear fashion, so that it only deflects aty much higher speeds. Most teams have alinear relationship and the wing is already flexing at lower speeds. Ferraris higher top speed cannot be seen as evidence that they are using flexign wings, the fact they are slower in the other sectors proves their set up is biased towards straight line speed (as they werent certain of pole).

[kilcoo316]

It would appear ferraris solution is to make the the wing deflect in a non linear fashion, so that it only deflects at much higher speeds.

A friend (who might have an inside line on it) says they have the wing natural frequency tuned to the frequency of the vortex shedding from the wing itself.

Obviously resonance would then make it non-linear in behaviour (and deflection alot more). As I'm no expert on composites, I don't know how easy this is to achieve, or if its even possible, maybe someone else here can comment?

[Mikey_s]

Forgive me if I say something daft, but why does the wing behaviour need to be non-linear?

From my subjective viewing of the deformation of front wings flexing the deflection appears to be fairly predicatable and also relatively smooth as speed increases, there certainly does not appear to be a sudden step change in deformation at any particular speed. Furthermore, such behaviour would be really rather hard to design into the wing.

Now, I'm no aerodynamicist, but I seem to recall that nice Mr Brundle saying something about drag squaring with speed, and aero stuff certainly seems to increase substantially as the speed increases, so why is it not just a linear reaction to a squaring of stress as the speed increases?

Like i say, if I've said something crass I'll see myself out!

[DaveKillens]

In archery, the compound bow gives less resistance the further it is pulled back. For instance, when you make the initial pull, it may be 100 pounds. But near the farthest pull, the tension may be just 25 pounds. So it is possible to engineer in a decreasing rate of tension. I don't even know what Ferrari is doing, but it is probably possible to engineer a wing to flex and move in a manner that decreases resistance as more load is applied. If they can do this while staying inside the FIA inspection procedures, then I have to say, well done, good engineering.

[zac510]

And out of all tracks that the wing fiasco should rear its head: Barcelona, with long fast corners.. I'd have expected much more hoo-ha at Canada or Silverstone.

Kilcoo, if resonance occured would the wing need to actually deflect? or would the basic l:d efficiency change in a non-linear fashion?

[Mikey_s]

Dave,

in the compound bow the non-linear respopnse is generated by a cam and pulley set-up - I find it difficult to envisage a similar system inside the foil section of a wing... but there are some clever tikes in this game so perhaps I am wrong. Nonetheless, I am still curious as to why the discussion has headed to non-linearity, has anyone observed non-linear behaviour in the wings?

[zac510]

I can't even see the Ferrari rear wing bend to be honest, the resolution of the terrestial TV is too small to see the gap.

But I agree that the front wings bend. Perhaps if we could get Reca in here then we could get combine some sound analysis and video footage for our own investigation

[RH1300S]

In archery, the compound bow gives less resistance the further it is pulled back. For instance, when you make the initial pull, it may be 100 pounds. But near the farthest pull, the tension may be just 25 pounds. So it is possible to engineer in a decreasing rate of tension. I don't even know what Ferrari is doing, but it is probably possible to engineer a wing to flex and move in a manner that decreases resistance as more load is applied. If they can do this while staying inside the FIA inspection procedures, then I have to say, well done, good engineering.

Suddenly this thread takes an interesting turn

It's an interesting idea to consider non-linear flex. This cannot be beyond the scope of F1's minds. Cool idea If no-one is doing this, it's about time they started

But back to Mikey_s - I must admit I had been thinking on the same lines as you.

[kilcoo316]

Kilcoo, if resonance occured would the wing need to actually deflect? or would the basic l:d efficiency change in a non-linear fashion?

I mean resonance in the wing (structural resonance), not aerodynamic.

As for the non-linearity, all the teams wings are flexing "normally" (as in obeying somthing close to Young's modulus, which is a straight line (linear curve), but ferrari's* seems to be curving off much more towards a maximum (as in its strain rate is increasing above a constant value with increased stress).

*Or.... Ferrari cannot stick wing on the car for balance reasons (as Ross Brawn alluded to in Imola), hence slow in corners, but fast on straights... So there is no more flex in their wing than in mclarens or renaults.

[Sknguy-]

This non-linearity is interesting... it would be interesting to hear from a chemist about what structural characteristics could be designed into carbon composites.

[zac510]

There are so many different ways in which the wing could bend.

The angle of incidence could change, moving both elements in unison. (This seems to be what the scrutineer test is focussed upon)

The individual element could change angle of attack, simply causing less downforce. (Probably decreases drag penalty too)

The slot gap could decrease changing the interaction between the two wings. (probably same drag penalty)

Matching of resonant frequencies. (need more proof!)

We don't know which aspect(s) each team are focussing upon.

[Mikey_s]

sknguy,

I'm a chemist and I am not certain that thi is really to do with chemistry - not chemical reactions are going to occur here - it's more likely to be material engineering than chemistry in my view -

As zac mentioned, there are many ways this could be engineered into the wings - different stiffnesses between the elements could easily close the gap, I could easily imagine the Renault upper elements bending out the way, that big cut-out under the low pressure side could lead to a hinge effect of the end-plates - bending of the mounting, the list goes on and on.

I need more proof of the non-linear explanations...