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The battle of flexing rear wings

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mcdenife
mcdenife
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Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:21
Location: Timbuck2

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Mickey_s wrote:
As zac mentioned, there are many ways this could be engineered into the wings - different stiffnesses between the elements
IMO: for this to happen (ie.different stiffnesses) then the materials would either have to be different, the treatment/curing methods are different (not sure about this with regards to these types of composites) or fabrication methods would be different. Unfortunately I know less about the science of composites than I do about most other materials but as RH1300s said "it's an interesting idea to consider non-linear flex" and by extension the materials
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.
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Mikey_s
Mikey_s
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Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

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Mcdenife,

i don't think it needas to be so cojmplex - different cross sectional areas, different stiffeners inside... loads of ways to achieve it.

Whilst I don't wish to belittle the awesome brains behind some ideas in F1 it might just have been discovered by accident in the wind tunnel first time around when someone made a mistake in the wing construction and left a bit out. Who knows...

There are a few good pics of wing internals on the speedtv site under a similar thread to this...

http://insider.speedtv.com/viewtopic.ph ... 9d890e60b2
Mike
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mcdenife
mcdenife
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Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:21
Location: Timbuck2

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Its not so complex if you know the properties/characterics of the material and if by stiffness you were refering to the modulus of elasticity of a material then cross sectional area does not come into it. It varies depending on the exact composition of a material which in metals for example, the depends on the precise composition of the alloy and any heat treatment applied during manufacture.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.
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mcdenife
mcdenife
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Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:21
Location: Timbuck2

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Whilst I don't wish to belittle the awesome brains behind some ideas in F1 it might just have been discovered by accident in the wind tunnel first time around when someone made a mistake in the wing construction and left a bit out. Who knows...
I agree also that it may have been discovered by accident. Accidental discoveries are not uncommon and dont belittle 'the discoverer' but it is not a discovery unless it can be reproduced.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.
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DarkSnape
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Joined: 01 Mar 2006, 15:07
Location: Bucharest

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McLaren and Williams could be the first of several teams to follow Ferrari's lead in fitting so-called 'flexi' rear wings in 2006.

After finishing a minute behind the leaders at Barcelona, and lagging behind Ferrari in the speed traps, it is now suggested that engineers at Woking based McLaren are intending to possibly debut the dubious design at soon as Monaco.

The FIA's lack of action in banning the Ferrari wing - and declaring it legal - means that others now feel more comfortable in exploring the alternate interpretation of the rules.

It is understood that Williams may also be heading down the 'flexi' route, after struggling even more markedly for top speed at Circuit de Catalunya.

"We have got to improve in all areas," McLaren's Martin Whitmarsh has now admitted.
And, hinting at how McLaren would handle Ferrari's ongoing use of the flexible innovation, he added that the silver team has 'waited' to see how the FIA handled the issue.

Indeed, on board footage during the Spanish Grand Prix weekend showed front wings flexing considerably on the Renault, McLaren and Ferrari machines. The footage shows the wing being forced towards the track surface on the straights and flexing back to a more upright position under braking. The rear wing debate is the closing of the rear elements at speed.
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mini696
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Joined: 20 Mar 2006, 02:34

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I doubt it would have been an accidental discovery... It seems quite obvious to me. The hard part is controlling the amount of flex.
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Mikey_s
Mikey_s
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Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

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Mcdenife,

when I mentioned stiffness this does, of course, relate to elastic/youngs modulus, but I was more thinking about the actual construction of the foil - if you consider the difference in stiffness between a flat sheet, or a cylinder made of the same material you will have completely different stiffness, although the material properties might be the same. Similarly, if you look at the cross section of the foil in the link I posted you will see internal stiffeners inside the Jordan wing element.

Clearly if they want the wing to flex then they will play around with the construction to permit flexion in a particular dimension.
Mike
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DarkSnape
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Joined: 01 Mar 2006, 15:07
Location: Bucharest

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check this out:

Honda refuses to use flexing wings


"It appears as if any debate on the legality of the ‘flexing’ rear wing is at an end after the majority of the teams on the Formula One grid have come to the realization that it makes no difference how many of them complain to the sports governing body or how often, it passes all static load tests presented by the FIA.



Therefore, other teams are adopting the same strategy and working on introducing similar wings to Renault and Ferrari and according to our spies in Spain, Williams, McLaren and now Toyota are looking at introducing their own versions in the near future. However, Honda, who made the last complaint to the FIA, is still very against the technology and refuses to copy it…



“In our opinion it is illegal, therefore we will not copy it,” Honda’s sporting director Otmar Szafnauer insists.



Meanwhile, even though Toyota is one of the teams looking to use the technology, their driver Ralf Schumacher has issued the following warning…



“It is a grey area, but a dangerous one. If somebody goes too far with it, the rearwing might break and we all know how far a Formula One car can fly, when this happens.”

i remember that in winter testing period the rear wing spec of J. Fisichela broken. it`s about this wing
Image

and this
Image

i know it that they use lexing wings
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manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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“In our opinion it is illegal, therefore we will not copy it,” Honda’s sporting director Otmar Szafnauer insists.

This is a technical forum so I'd expect moderatos to delete all Ferrari/FIA/flexing/illegal bull**it ranting

:roll: :roll: :roll:
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saam
saam
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Joined: 09 May 2006, 18:37

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Manchild you have some serious issues man.... Your hatred for Ferrari is boring me to tears......

Has Ferrari taken your family away???

Maybe one day youll grow up. Since you have an opinion for everything, this is my opinion taken from all your comments made since ive joined this forum....
Always FERRARI


Everyones an F1 expert........
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manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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What is your problem? I only wrote same things other people wrote saying that talk about Ferrari's illegality doesn't belong in this thread.

Every time I wrote someting about it i got such reply so I replied the same way. What Honda’s sporting director Otmar Szafnauer said has noting to do with functionalty of flexible wings and it is only his opinion about Ferrari wings which makes it "bull**it ranting" so it doesn't belong in this thread.
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mcdenife
mcdenife
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Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:21
Location: Timbuck2

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Mickey_s wrote:
Mcdenife,

when I mentioned stiffness this does, of course, relate to elastic/youngs modulus, but I was more thinking about the actual construction of the foil - if you consider the difference in stiffness between a flat sheet, or a cylinder made of the same material you will have completely different stiffness, although the material properties might be the same. Similarly, if you look at the cross section of the foil in the link I posted you will see internal stiffeners inside the Jordan wing element.

Clearly if they want the wing to flex then they will play around with the construction to permit flexion in a particular dimension.
In that case I think you are refering to the strength (of different contructions/shapes of the the material) rather than stiffness.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.
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Mikey_s
Mikey_s
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Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

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Mc, no I meant stiffness - Carbon fibres are very strong, but not stiff, so they have to use epoxy resin as well.

I am sure the wings are very strong, but they are working to manage the stiffness of the wing.
Mike
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Tp
Tp
0
Joined: 02 Mar 2006, 15:52
Location: UK

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Just robbed this from another forum 8)

The controversey with Ferrari's rear wing is that there is no "spacer" between the top and bottom rear wing. So down the straights under load, 2 wing peices become one creating less drag by restricting airflow between the winglets.


watch the gap. ==>[IMG:305:92]http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/8229 ... 4ah4ce.gif[/img]
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mcdenife
mcdenife
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Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:21
Location: Timbuck2

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Mickey_s wrote:
Mc, no I meant stiffness - Carbon fibres are very strong, but not stiff
.
I think you using stiffness in terms of the rigidity of the contruction, or part, when you say carbon fibre is not stiff.
Stiffness is a measure of E (youngs modulus) so in these terms it is not correct to say carbon fibre is not stiff.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.
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