Silly Season 2011/2012

[munudeges]

Sutil is getting ditched for a reason, despite his sponsorship backing, and it's already been elaborated on as to the reasons why. Over five years he's shown brief flashes of what he might be capable of but at times he has been completely anonymous in a lot of races. It's not like he's had no help from the team. Force India are asking themselves whether the next five years will be any different with Sutil, or with Di Resta. Comparing Di Resta's first season with Sutil's first there is only one answer. Everyone would do well to remember that when they are bigging him up.

Even more laughable is the suggestion that Sutil would beat Raikkonen. Sutil hasn't even shown he is capable of winning a race or even getting on the podium (he's crashed out of races in the wet when in promising positions), let alone a championship.

[multisync]

PDr is over rated without a doubt. The BBC were mad for him all year but his season got slowly worse (as did Luizzi's ) I personally don't think he's done enough to keep his seat (or not enough to lose it) but as a driver meh. From what I heard at the factory Hulk was quicker than both AS and PDR in the testing so it's a simple case of money and feedback IMHO

The problem lies most likely in that the team signed PDR/NH up and 'sacked' AS during the first half of the season and the second half has made them re-evaluate that decision

Christmas party on the front lawn soon so I guess all three are waiting for their invite to drop(or not) on the mat

[twostring]

Concerning the Sutil v. Raikkonen debate, if my fantasy league/pub argument calculations are correct...

Raikkonen
Age: 32
Total Seasons: 9
Starts: 157
Podiums: 44
Career Points: 579
Win Percentage: 11.46%
Top 10 Percentage: 67.52%
Retirement Percentage: 26.75%
Average Points Per Season Value: 64.33

Sutil
Age: 28
Total Seasons: 5 (+1 as TRD)
Starts: 90
Podiums: 0
Career Points: 95
Win Percentage: 0%
Top 10 Percentage: 24.44%
Retirement Percentage: 31.11%
Average Points Per Season Value: 19

Granted, this doesn't factor in variables like average car performance, motivation, press appearances, sponsorship money, etc etc, but on paper, I'd bet on Raikkonen. For comparison to Sutil...

Alguersuari
Age: 21
Total Seasons: 3
Starts: 46
Podiums: 0
Career Points: 31
Win Percentage: 0%
Top 10 Percentage: 21.74%
Retirement Percentage: 21.74%
Average Points Per Season Value: 10.33

Hulkenberg
Age: 24
Total Seasons: 4 (+1 as TRD, last active 2010)
Starts: 19
Podiums: 0
Career Points: 22
Win Percentage: 0%
Top 10 Percentage: 36.84%
Retirement Percentage: 21.05%
Average Points Per Season Value: 22

di Resta
Age: 25
Total Seasons: 1 (+1 as TRD)
Starts: 19
Podiums: 0
Career Points: 27
Win Percentage: 0%
Top 10 Percentage: 42.11%
Retirement Percentage: 5.26%
Average Points Per Season Value: 27

Petrov
Age: 27
Total Seasons: 2
Starts: 38
Podiums: 1
Career Points: 64
Win Percentage: 0%
Top 10 Percentage: 34.21%
Retirement Percentage: 21.05%
Average Points Per Season Value: 32

Petrov is a good choice for Renault, even without the sponsor money. Although, if I were looking for a young driver to pair with Raikkonen, I'd have to bet on Hulkenberg. At this point, I'd be looking ahead to the next formula while maximizing points for a good pay out. Don't write off the season, just make sure you're doing whatever you can to get the most out of it and hit 2013 hard, and also with the idea that Kubica is no longer a good investment. You can't hold off building a team for what-ifs.

I think a di Resta/Heidfeld pairing at Force India wouldn't be a horrible package (Heidfeld with 58.33% top 10 finishes).

If no one else is willing to bid on the other old man in the sport, Barrichello would be good for HRT...lots of experience and a 59.28% top 10 percentage. If sponsor money wasn't a concern, Barrichello/Raikkonen at Lotus would be pretty powerful.

Maybe Williams can weasel Fisichella or Klien back into a race seat. I honestly can't see Williams being a contender in 2012. There are too many changes going on to the old guard, and I expect Caterham will be fighting with them next season and might even beat them.

Toro Rosso...who knows. If they ended up with Hulkenberg/di Resta, that could end up being a dangerous pairing if the car is right, and both drivers show a lot of promise.

I've made these driver pairings based only on maximizing points in the constructor's championships. I think it's pretty safe to say other teams won't be stepping up to fight the big 3 any time soon.

[ringo]

Even more laughable is the suggestion that Sutil would beat Raikkonen. Sutil hasn't even shown he is capable of winning a race or even getting on the podium (he's crashed out of races in the wet when in promising positions), let alone a championship.

You remind me of shumacher come back when every said he'd wipe the floor with Rosberg.
They tried to play the stats game to prove it. But it's not about statitstics or resume, it's about who is doing the better driving, who is faster.
Mark this post like they marked my post on Rosberg vs Shumacher... Sutil will open up a can of whoopass on Raikonen..
RAikonen left with Massa beating him, Massa is being stomped by Alonso. It's not as clear cut as you want it to be.
Sutil will trounce Raikonen like Rosberg trounced Micheal.

Lotus need to put Sutil on the team, for all the right reasons.

[Richard]

Granted, this doesn't factor in variables like average car performance

Understatement! One accumulated points with Ferrari and McLaren while the other drove Force India.

[scuderiafan]

Even more laughable is the suggestion that Sutil would beat Raikkonen. Sutil hasn't even shown he is capable of winning a race or even getting on the podium (he's crashed out of races in the wet when in promising positions), let alone a championship.

You remind me of shumacher come back when every said he'd wipe the floor with Rosberg.
They tried to play the stats game to prove it. But it's not about statitstics or resume, it's about who is doing the better driving, who is faster.
Mark this post like they marked my post on Rosberg vs Shumacher... Sutil will open up a can of whoopass on Raikonen..
RAikonen left with Massa beating him, Massa is being stomped by Alonso. It's not as clear cut as you want it to be.
Sutil will trounce Raikonen like Rosberg trounced Micheal.

Lotus need to put Sutil on the team, for all the right reasons.

Raikkonen left when he was beating Massa. Granted, Massa missed the last half of the season, but Raikkonen would still have beat him. Sutil will not trounce Rakkonen. He won't do it because Sutil won't be racing next year, and even if he does, it'll be in a Williams that will probably have been demoted to the backfield.

Mods need to cut half of the posts in this Silly Season 2011/2012 thread, it's starting to get into a Sutil/Raikkonen debate, and the cynicism of some posters is egging the thread on.

[twostring]

Understatement! One accumulated points with Ferrari and McLaren while the other drove Force India.

But there were more than enough seasons where the McLaren wasn't the best car on the grid and was regularly outpaced by Ferrari and Williams, and even Renault and Honda in '04 when the McLaren was plagued by reliability issues. Comparatively, I should think that if Sutil was the driver that so many are hyping him to be, Force India should have been able to overtake Renault this season and Williams in 2010.

The Force India may be a mid-pack car, but when compared to the other mid-pack cars, it's not so horrible. Don't forget 2009 also...Fisichella outperformed Sutil 7 to 4 when both cars finished, and Spa where Fisichella put the car on pole but Sutil couldn't break Q2. I can't help but think that Sutil should have been able to beat Glock in the Toyota. And for sake of argument, I'll mention Italy '09 where Sutil qualified P2 and Fisichella P14, but the race saw Sutil finish P4 (-2) and Fisichella P9 (+5).

Yes, these are all just numbers, but I read the posts about Sutil and I can't help but think that there should be more stats supporting the arguments for Sutil and better performances against the other mid-pack drivers. That, and I don't really see any moments that really make Sutil stand out as a performer, where Raikkonen has had several seasons of car-bending performances where he's right at the edge of the car just giving up.

There are too many young drivers available that look more promising. Raikkonen is a known quantity and a good value if I'm looking for points finishes. Sutil is a decent support driver, but a top finisher paired with a support driver isn't going to maximize a team's ability to acquire points for the constructor's championship. Sutil in a top car would be comparable to Massa...decent points finishes, but without the nerve to push the car to the edge to win races.

[munudeges]

You remind me of shumacher come back when every said he'd wipe the floor with Rosberg.

Three years out, he hadn't turned a wheel in anything and experience of control tyres. I never said Schumacher would wipe the floor with Rosberg at the time incidentally, but the comparison is a bit non-sensical anyway since Rosberg is way better than Sutil.

Frankly, Raikkonen is a more talented driver than Schumacher. You only need to see what he's been doing for that past couple of years. Schumacher wouldn't get a rally car out of the service station.

Sutil will open up a can of whoopass on Raikonen..

In your dreams and not based in past performance..... Raikkonen got straight out of Sauber and into a McLaren. Sutil got straight out of a Force India and into.....? Despite his money he isn't as good as Di Resta or Hulkenberg. That's the opinion of the team that employs him and knows what he's like I'm afraid.

RAikonen left with Massa beating him, Massa is being stomped by Alonso. It's not as clear cut as you want it to be.

Raikkonen is in an unpolitical team now who will treat their drivers equally, and frankly, Raikkonen was World Champion at Ferrari where Massa wasn't, despite all the help they could give him. Sutil will be shown for exactly what he is - an extremely inconsistent driver with the odd flash of promise that makes you think he might be capable of more. He isn't.

[vall]

for some reason Ringo keeps Sutil in very high esteem, but I don't understand it. (Maybe because he is a buddy of Hamilton ) I think Sutil is an average driver that will do fine in a good car, but nothing more. He is no Alonso, Raikonnen, Hamilton who stormed F1 (the 1st two showing their potential in lesser team than Sutil's FI). I would like to see the return of reasonable amount of in-season testing the more young drivers given a chance. Like in old times when drivers would be replaced all the time in the lower teams. My respect to Rubens, Trulli, etc. but their time is over and fresh blood is needed.

[scuderiafan]

Back to discussing the silly season...

Team Lotus: Raikkonen/Petrov, RD/TD: Senna
WilliamsF1: Sutil/Maldonado (Williams will want an experienced driver and a young driver)
Force India: di Resta/Hulkenburg
Scuderia Toro Rosso: Alguersuari/Vergne
Caterham F1: Kovalainen/Ricciardo
HRT: de la Rosa/Clos/Charouz/whoever has money

[ringo]

Frankly, Raikkonen is a more talented driver than Schumacher.

Whoaa!!
Tread lightly.

I rate Sutil because he is very fast and flashy driver. I couldn't care less if he was Hamilton's friend.
Diresta is the overated driver. ALways magnified by Coulthard and Humphries on BBC.

When i watch the drivers, i don't really pay much mind to end of year results if the car is not a top car.

Sutil is faster than diresta, and he's faster than the Hulk over a race distance.
He's made a few mistakes, but he's made them at the right time.
He's a good driver in the wet, and he's pretty brave; which can come across as foolhardy most times. But the kid has a bright future if he gets a top car.

Sometimes you should watch how a driver handles a car, more so than how he finishes it.
Raikonen is a dinosaur. He'll be devoured. and Hey i like the guy as a driver, but he doesn't really have any strong points, he's just quick.
He's neither creative, brave, great at overtaking or defending. If his speed goes, so does his motivation and he'll turn to Sutil's foot stool.

And these discussions are on topic by the way, as it does put perspective in how the teams will select their drivers next year.
Sutil has potential.

[MIKEY_!]

....

He isn't quick, nor is he consistent in terms of performance over a season. None of his teammates has actually been good to actually challenge him, until di Resta, who has been out-racing him all season before Force India start putting the two drivers on different strategy. And let's be honest, Sutil is never going to be top team material.

...

With Rubens you know you are getting what you pay for. He is a proven race winner, with tons of experience and known for his good feedback. I don't really see why anyone would swap Sutil for Rubens. Rubens is the best out of all the available drivers IMO.
....

Sutil won the quali battle and scored more WC points... he was definitly outraced by DiResta... A DiResta that was faster than Vettel in F3Euroserie and won the Masters (but apparently because he had special engines).

BAR is attractive as an old dog, a frustrated old dog. Remember him whining in the BRAWN... Time to go for him!

And yet BAR won two races to Button's none in the last part of that season. Granted it's been two years but he's not slow.

[raymondu999]

For what it's worth, Grosjean beat Senna in ROC

[MIKEY_!]

By that logic Heikki Kovalainen is better. He won in 2004! Beating Schumi (they were driving Ferrari 360's) and Loeb (using WRC cars) despite having no rally experience.

In 2005 he beat Vettel in a one on one ROC race!

In 2004 he had yet to even do a season in GP2!

[raymondu999]

Oh come on now you're being silly. Kovalainen is obviously the best driver since Senna. How could you not see that?

(NB: All comments in this post were made with a dollop of sarcasm)