FOTA is dead

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Mclaren cant because they lost Mercedes money and have stretched themselves with building the 12C,

Don't agree with this, I'm afraid. Ron will have been very careful to keep the finances of McLaren Vodafone Mercedes and McLaren Automotive totally separate. The F1 team will not have been affected by the money being spent on the MP4-12C and the other forthcoming road cars.

People may not like the guy, but Ron is no idiot when it comes to this sort of thing.

Ron and Mclaren doesnt have the money to finance mclaren automotive and their road car expansion plan, thats why Ron needs to travel around the world go get investors to buy into the automotive division. Recently they just sold a stake to a Singapore billionaire investor Peter Lim.

Mclaren is the ultimate f1 marketing machine, not the richest I am afraid.

+1 in that they arent the richest.

They lost 80 million a year from Mercedes departure. The 12 C was developed at a cost of xxx million, where does a company like McLaren get that sort of cash with ZERO sales? investments alone?
Their f1 arm may not have suffered as a result of it, but McLaren cannot spend their way out of trouble like the old days should big budgets return, of that Iam certain...

[Just_a_fan]

Mclaren cant because they lost Mercedes money and have stretched themselves with building the 12C,

Don't agree with this, I'm afraid. Ron will have been very careful to keep the finances of McLaren Vodafone Mercedes and McLaren Automotive totally separate. The F1 team will not have been affected by the money being spent on the MP4-12C and the other forthcoming road cars.

People may not like the guy, but Ron is no idiot when it comes to this sort of thing.

Ron and Mclaren doesnt have the money to finance mclaren automotive and their road car expansion plan, thats why Ron needs to travel around the world go get investors to buy into the automotive division. Recently they just sold a stake to a Singapore billionaire investor Peter Lim.

Mclaren is the ultimate f1 marketing machine, not the richest I am afraid.

McLaren Automotive (the road car group) is a totally separate entity to the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes (the F1 racing team). Totally separate.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

J_A_F

Lets start a topic on this because here isnt the place.


I wonder if we could also have a poll as to whom everyone thinks the real blame for this mess lies? Just want to garner what people are thinking on this site.

[Tyler]

I've never really liked Red Bull Racing.
Having guys like Horner and Marko in their organization doesn't help.
Horner is a smug little prick and I can't stand the guy.

Sorry I'm a layman on the issue but to a layman it seems as though Red Bull want to be able to outspend everyone in order for them to dominate the sport for years to come.
Great for them but how many teams will leave F1 if there is no prospect of them ever winning championships because they are unable to match Red Bull's budget.

Sure, having a big budget didn't help Honda or Toyota, although that is debatable (the Brawn BGP001 was born out of Honda's huge spending and they could have continued this success had they not left F1).
In any case Red Bull have the resources to secure the best engineers and with the right people in place have shown that a big budget can be converted into results.

Not that I ever drank it much to begin with but I don't think I'll be buying any more cans of Red Bull.
If I absolutely have to have an energy drink I'll buy a Monster instead.
I know that F1 is a marketing tool for F1 but if they're going to ruin the sport, then I hope it backfires on them!

[raymondu999]

@Tyler - Red Bull left FOTA. They are still bound by the RRA to 2017. They aren't able to suddenly outspend everyone.

[Mr.S]

@Tyler - Red Bull left FOTA. They are still bound by the RRA to 2017. They aren't able to suddenly outspend everyone.

There is no way to say that they have not been continually out-spending.

Stop saying the same stuff. RRA is a huge joke with no proper watchdog to monitor it.

[Tyler]

What is the actual reason for Red Bull leaving then?
All I've heard is people arguing about how much they spend

[Pup]

McLaren Automotive (the road car group) is a totally separate entity to the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes (the F1 racing team). Totally separate.

Yes, McAuto is financed though investment and loans, and they don't drain the coffers of the F1 team at all. They could go belly up and still would have no financial impact on the team. In fact, I believe they actually pay the F1 team for the rights to use the McLaren name and technology and rent for the facilities.

The 12 C was developed at a cost of xxx million, where does a company like McLaren get that sort of cash with ZERO sales? investments alone?

Yes, at least that's how I understand it. More accurately, I think the development cost of the 12c was funded by the SLR, while the facilities, etc. are being funded though investment and loans.

[WhiteBlue]

@Tyler - Red Bull left FOTA. They are still bound by the RRA to 2017. They aren't able to suddenly outspend everyone.

There is no way to say that they have not been continually out-spending.

Stop saying the same stuff. RRA is a huge joke with no proper watchdog to monitor it.

That is a very debatable opinion. We have a great many quotations of leading F1 people who say that RRA did actually work and has significantly dropped the spending of the top teams. Many of the parameters are easy to monitor such as having no tests or limited race day crews. All observers agree that there are some issues particularly with the cash limit on externally generated services and parts. There is also the problem to replace the engine freeze with a manageable cost control method. The fundamental truth is that RRA together with the modified FOM payout did what it was supposed to do. It kept eleven teams alive in a financial crisis by cutting the top spending by more than 50%.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@pup

The SLR didnt make a bean....

[raymondu999]

JET - I thought the SLR was more a Mercedes thing, with McLaren branding. As opposed to being a McLaren thing, in conjunction with Mercedes

[xpensive]

Have to agree with JET here, I find it quite obvious that it's Red Bull Racing who has the most to lose from an enforced RRA, which gives Vettel's achievements a bit of perspective I might add, their parent company is litterally loaded with an infinite amount of cash, while the entire Formula One operation can probably be written off as "maketing efforts".

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Really not the right place to discuss this, but it was a joint venture that failed miserably.
There is no way that the SLR contributed anything to the 12C because it didn't make a penny.

Expanding on this point to make it pertinent to the the thread, McLaren lost a cash cow in mercedes. It isn't their interests to expose themselves less to higher f1 costs as even though McLaren cars and McLaren f1 are sister companies, there is capital transfer between the 2 as in most sister companies. To deny there isn't and there is a blanket firewall between the 2 is naive to say the least.

How this correlates in comparison to Red bul, theyl want to keep winning, at any cost. Any restrictions placed on spending is seen as the sport attempting to clip it's wings. How they wanted it "the same for everyone", yet cannot conclusive prove that red bull technologies does not in some way feed red bull f1..... What's the point of the bloody thing then? Have a space age red bull can?
Bloody ridiculous state of affairs.

The Dutch auditors found massive discrepancies, and yet their findings hold no water as FOTA is toothless to act. What needs to happen is for a full investigation by the FIA, and for a watchdog with bite (FIA) that will enforce an RRA. Otherwise, what's the point?

[raymondu999]

Speaking of the RRA; how does the RRA police "subcontracting?" For example.

Say Red Bull Racing and Red Bull Technologies. I believe both are separate corporate entities. Correct me if I'm wrong. What if Newey, Marshall, Prodromou is paid hundreds of millions (I'm exaggerating) by Red Bull Technologies; which isn't bound by the RRA (Red Bull Racing is instead). And then Red Bull Racing "buys" the RB7 and upgrade packages from Red Bull Technologies for a hundred quid a pop. How does that work out then?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

That's exactly why Ferrari followed red bull out of FOTA.
Ferrari have long been suspicious of this setup(not alone in that either).

Why should all teams adhere yet red bull bend the laws of this interpretation? It cannot be proven either....because intellectual properties are at stake red bull can always play the industrial secrets card to prevent further investigation.
Horner himself alluded to this more than a few times, asking how ideas could be masked in light if audits by third parties.

Strange how he was the only one asking this...